Early HJ Scharfahne Ludwigshafen

[paulj]

Thanks to the research of a colleague I have deciphered the unit designation of this early Hitler Youth flag:

Schar 2/Gefolgschaft 4
Unterbann I
Bann B17 Ludwigshafen (HJ-Gebiet 10 Ruhr-Niederrhein)

This unit was part of Oberbann 5.

Anyone else have a similar early flag? There was one at an SOS several years ago with red and white cord piping around the patch. I presume it's in a collection somewhere now.

[wilhelm Saris]

Prior to March 1935 (since January 1934) B17 was located in Gebiet 13, Hessen-Nassau (Note from Aufbau, Gliederung und Anschriften der HJ from January 1, 1934), in Oberbann 5 Rheinpfalz.
Since March 1935 the B17 was located in Gebiet 25 - Pfalz-Saar (Anschriftenverzeichnis with the stand from March 1, 1935.

[paulj]

It sounds like HJ organizational tendencies are as confusing as SA.

However, the B aspect is particularly interesting.

[wilhelm Saris]

This is the text (global) I used in my handbook on page 428:
when the HJ was reorganized August 1, 1933 the Bavarian districts of Hochland and Franken received a special designation: B.
In early 1936 this B-designation was eliminated. The districts were renumbered when the new identification colors were to be worn since April 1, 1936.
The SA is not that dificult either!

[paulj]

But, B17 isn't a Bavarian Bann

[wilhelm Saris]

Correct, but it was anyway listed with those that were allowed to use the B.
Largely one should see this Bavarian as "southern Germany".
As far as I know there was no reason mentioned why Ludwigshafen and others were added.
The B is to be found in district 18 (Franken), district 19 (Hochland), district 22 (Bayerische Ostmark) and district 25 (Pfalz-Saar). The area from Ludwigshafen, Landau, Zweibrücken, Kaiserslautern, Bad Dürkheom, Kindsbach, Saarlouis, Saarbrücken and Neunkirchen. So various near to the French border.

[wilhelm Saris]

District 10 - Ruhr-Niederrhein are cities like Wuppertal, Düsseldorf, Krefeld, Essen, Neuss, Viersen, Duisburg, Kleve (near the Dutch border at Nijmegen - best known from "Market Garden" and the movie "A bridge too far") and some more. So, in miles all of these cities are quite far from Ludwigshafen.

[paulj]

Here an older posting regarding the B Bann designation

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=243729

[wilhelm Saris]

In post 2 I noted from what the information I gave was taken. These are official lists from the Reichsjugendführung der HJ, which I have in my possession since about the early 1980's, when I started to research Bann-numbers from material I got from German archives (not even the Bundesarchiv)and private researchers from Germany I started working out all lists-information I had, which resulted in 2009 in the 784 pages from the HJ-handbook when I included triangle and shoulder-straps information.
I know and am aware of the fact that many lists have been put together by various persons (Hüsken for example). Surveys did exist already in Europe since the mid-1980's, enlarged in the 1990's.

[paulj]

Here's another photo to show the flag pole sleeve more clearly. This flag never had rings.

[Garry M.]

My apologies Paul. You copied the information before I noticed that I'd pasted the wrong Gebiet into the post from my database. I corrected it straight away but I was clearly too late I can't upload a scan from the source document (Aufbau, Gliederung und Anschriften der HJ 1934) as my membership level here is insufficient but I'd be more than happy to do so over on the HJ forum if you'd like to have it for your records

On the matter of compiling lists; between early 2007 and 2009 I found the period books containing full lists for 1934, 1936, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1941 and 1942 (all complete lists compiled by the Reichsjugendführung itself in each of those years) so you don't need 30 years (and you certainly shouldn't need the SHAEF list to help you incorrectly guess units...). This is not the black art some make it out to be. All one needs is an inquisitive mind, time and the ability to read German.

Having said that I still haven't found a good list for 1935 and 1933 eluded me until this year but it's all good fun.

[paulj]

Thanks, Garry. I noticed that and another forum member was quick to point out the discrepancy.

I find it interesting that this Bann from Ludwigshafen still fell under the B designation.