Identification Flag

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[Perry Floyd]

Notice it said one German helmet, generic wording.

Here's another, notice is says 1 pistol cal.7.65

http://daggers.infopop.net/2/OpenTop...786#4623014786

[Perry Floyd]

Oh-oh, whats this????

Here's a capture paper for a FLAG!! Wonder how it's worded, hmmmmm lets see, I bet like 90% of all the other capture papers you will encounter...
Let's have a look.....

http://daggers.infopop.net/2/OpenTop...786#4623014786

[Perry Floyd]

Hmmmm, and all that generic wording....Oh and for "Spear's War Production approval records" why dont you show us something from that relating? Say regular NSDAP flags. You know the most common of Third Reich flags.

[Gregory Koepp]

"Show me I'm wrong"

perry it's not show me i'm wrong, it's show US it's real....

you and afew are saying these are real, so if you have more proof than i got it from a vet, then show it. other wise you have to know inside these are very questionable??

greg

[Bob Coleman]

I just stumbled across this thread and find it interesting how many replies there are on an item that old time collectors never considered to be very important. in 1956, I encountered my first example of this flag in a resale shop in on the north side of Chicago. The reason I remember the year is that it is the year I started collecting. I was able to purchase it for fifty cents. In the years that have passed, I have bought several others directly from veterans. Let us take a logical look at this. Things that are faked are produced for sale and profit. Years ago, these were difficult to sell. In the 50's and 60's, the reproductions were crude and cheaply made. the Baltic Cross flags I have seen have always been well made. My thoughts are they are likely a later war production as others have stated. I have never bought in to the "I've never seen it in a period photograph, therefore it is a fake" theory. If so, many items found in collections and reference books would be also judged fake. Even today, I would not consider this type of flag a piece to be at the top of anyone's shopping list. This evening, I will have to look through some of my old photo books published right after the war as I do recollect seeing a photo of one of these on a vehicle.

Bob

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[Gregory Koepp]

good luck in looking, i'd like to see something in a photo or book too.
it would be interesting to find anything on these, as well as finding atleast ONE with any kind of markings.

greg

[Bob Coleman]

I will try to look through some of the old books I have that were published in 1946 & 1947. The majority of the photos in these books have never been published elsewhere.

If you are interested in doing something on SA sturmfahne, I would be happy to post some photos if someone could do it for me. I have never mastered the art of posting and would be willing to forward pictures to someone if there is interest. I have a number of unusual ones including a medical SA sturmfahne, Gebergsjaeger, Reiter, Jaeger & two with martyrs names. I also have an unusual early rectangular sturmfahne with the names of the first two commanders stitched on the bottom. I can be contacted at colemandoor@aol.com
Bob

[Perry Floyd]

"Show me I'm wrong"

perry it's not show me i'm wrong, it's show US it's real....

you and afew are saying these are real, so if you have more proof than i got it from a vet, then show it. other wise you have to know inside these are very questionable??

greg

I have, name one single other item with this much vet linkage by so many that is still disproved by a few, remember your the minority.
Makers mark, I told you linen flags like this(all linen type NSDAP flags) are more often than not unmarked, you dont even know this. Your shooting from the hip like 99% of your posts. If you have handled these flags you would realize how misinformed that statement is. Your items are real because your the third person getting it from the vet although no one has seen one like it but you dismiss this when collectors one after the other tell you they have purchased one from a veteran, even a picture of the veteran that still has his, look how long ago collectors were buying them from the veteran? But for some reason you dismiss all this factual evidence even though your one indirect vet purchase has got to be real even though far more collectors discredit it. Remember your the minority here and its your misinformed posts on this thread and everywhere that draws you so much fire..everything you post is a ridiculously uneducated response. I've never had a grown man say such things as it's not real because it's not in a museum, or it's not in War Booty.
As far as old flag I think I've showed what he stated to be misinformed, I showed the generic wording that's on 90% of "capture papers" thus, disproving the need to be specific for customs. Again I've never heard a veteran having problems with customs, maybe your thinking of post WWII in occupied Germany, again never heard of it. And of course old flag(if he really knows flags) knows that linen flags such as this are unmarked more than they are encountered marked. He probably knows this and is the reason why he hasn't addressed it. And I'm still waiting to see Speers war production report on the most common of flags built like these, the linen NSDAP flag..

I think theres a fake in this thread but it's not these flags...

[Calvin Hall]

Gentlemen,

Civility! Civility!

I find this to be a very interesting thread in spite of the banter.

I posted the photo of the vet with the flag. The vet's grandson and I work together. Hopefully I will be able to get some additional info from the vet regarding his acquisition of the flag.

Calvin

[Bill D.]

If you don't believe that these flags are original, just don't buy them.

Those of us that have purchased them directly from the veteran's hands will follow another course.

Interestingly, I have had several items that were created as souvenirs for the occupation troops, such as an enlisted army visor cap that had gold bullion placed on it to create a "General's Cap". The piping was toned to a beautiful shade from being on the cap for 50 years, and if you rolled back the piping it was bright underneath, just as original Third Reich production caps would demonstrate. But it was a post-war upgraded enlisted cap nonetheless.

I also had a beautiful pink-piped Waffen SS officer's cap. It had a magnificent shape, an original visor, original insignia, an original officer's chincord, and it was superbly assembled; but it was made within a year or so of the end of the war. I'm pretty certain that, even though I sold it as a post-war copy, after this many years it is now unfortunately probably a valued "original" in someone's collection.

And then of course there are those "parts" daggers, the ones that have an army scabbard, a luftwaffe grip, an NSFK crossguard, and so on.

The point is, the "occupation souvenirs" were made as a "cottage industry". There were some enterprising Germans who recognized that the soldiers, especially the Americans, were souvenir-crazy. So they turned things out in their homes and little shops. And what did they create ? "Nazi" daggers; "SS" caps; and so on.

And so, I think it's clear that the creation of the Balkan Cross flags would have required a major production operation to turn out all of those flags that the veterans brought home. And the Germans were trying to give the allies what they wanted: "Nazi" stuff; and "SS stuff". I'm pretty certain that no enterprising German would have considered it a good investment of time and effort to set up a major operation to mass produce a flag that didn't even have the swastika on it !

So, those of us that accept them will continue to accept them, and those that don't can leave them for those of us that do.

[Jody]

Vehicle ID Flag

Hi guys,
Several of these flags came my way in the early and mid 70's and several even came my way via close friends who obtained them through motel buys. I never kept them and passed on a few, because flags are not my thing. My view (now) is that they were produced (original) but like a lot of things didn't get issued. Look at all of the Waffen-SS cloth that was made but never worn-Italian SS sleeve shields, Albanian SS sleeve shields, certain foreign SS tabs, etc. They are real, just not seen in photographs or issued. I really don't go by period photos proving anything. Look at the Luftwaffe Commemorative Flyer's badge, definately produced and awarded, but I have yet to see one in a period photo.

Someone made a statement about how no museum has these vehicle ID flags on display.There is a small military museum here in Phoenix, AZ on 52nd Steet and McDowell road (the old armory), near the former Papago Park POW camp. They have one of these flags on display. Champlin Fighter Museum (Mesa, AZ) also had one on display, before the doors were closed. This flag or another like it is on display at the Confederate Air museum hanger next door. I admit these museums are no where close to likes of the Imperial War Museum, but they are top museums in the state of Arizona. As I recall, even the Patton Museum near Death Valley, CA used to had one as well (at least they did back in 1991). While this does not prove these identification flags being original, it does prove that there are some musuems around that do display them.

When it comes to capture papers, the few that I have owned are very vague. For example, I have my great-uncles around here somewhere and it simply states-two pistols, three knives, a helmet and eight medals all Nazi. when in reality it was a Luger, a P-38, a SS dagger, a SA dagger, a Army dagger, a DD Heer M-35, and some assorted awards including a DK in gold, a paratrooper badge, and several other nice things. This same uncle also sent an entire 18th century bedroom set home from Germany as well as some rare clocks and some glassware. Most of this stuff is in my familie's homes in Prescott, AZ and Las Vegas. The shipping papers on this stuff was vague as well.

In addition, I have owned several NSDAP banners with no hallmarks. I can't recall seeing too many with hallmarks. The same holds true with many of the brassards I have owned. I have a vet bring back SS brassard with no RZM tag.


Just my .02 cents.
Regards,
Jody

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