ERMA K98 Sniper - help with varification

[.303 British]

Firstly I would like to say hello and introduce myself.

I am a mil-surp collector/shooter. My collection so far consists of a bringback G98 manufactured in 1912, re-issued 1915 with shrapnel damage and duffle cut stock. Russian capture K98, a couple of enfield and a 91/30 sniper, and shoot them all regularly at Bisley.

For the last three years I have been saving for what will be a jewel in my collection - an original, correct and matching K98 sniper.

I am now at the stage where I can make a purchase, but need a lot of help as there is an absolute sea of post war put-togethers.

Below I will insert some images of a rifle I would like to purchase, it is an AX 41 code (ERMA). It has high turret mounts.

My first area of suspicion come with the date. I understand that the '41' means manufacture in 1941, and I also understand that high turret mounts did not come into existance until 1943 (late 1942 at the very ealiese). Only low turret mounts (along with side rail) were used earlier.

My second suspicion comes with the condition of the scope and rings and rear mount - their finish is much brighter. The scope is also pitted, but not rusty so I presume it must have been re-blued?

The scope is from what I have found war time production, the serial in the 54000 range (ziez zielvier).

The mounts are not serial numbered, which I believe is correct.

I also would like to know how snipers were manufactured - I believe they were made from completed, finished rifles. This one has AX 41 and the lock, stock, barrel inspector stamps hidden by the mount.

I do not know if they were marked any differently (I know that 91/30's had a seven digit serial to the side of their reciever, and Enfields had a 'T' marking along with the code for holland&holland or whoever converted them). Were they also accurized in any additional way? I know that 91/30's had a better metal finish, and the Enfields had a cork bedding.

I know that this is a lot of questions, and I really do appreciate any help.

I cannot seem to upload images (dont really know how to!)

please follow this link, http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/vie...p?f=21&t=71762

[phild]

I would encourage you NOT to buy that rifle if you are looking for an origial WWII German sniper set...it is very wrong.

IMO the entire rifle and scope have been re-blued. The bolt looks re-numbered as well.

The lower mounts or bases look to be reproductions too me.... the lines are not right.

You are correct that there were no High turrets in 41 and it was closer to late 43 before they started appearing..As far as I know ALL High turrets were factory only set ups and all were set up by Mauser and Sauer...on their rifles as they were being made and tested...so no retro fitted High Turrets.

There were some ordnance set up Low turrets...probably all done prior to 1943 and they are very rare and even harder to authenticate...this is not one of those at least in anything like approaching original condition and scope bases.

It is a neat looking rifle and has had some good work done on it, just not the real deal.

[phild]

"also would like to know how snipers were manufactured - I believe they were made from completed, finished rifles. This one has AX 41 and the lock, stock, barrel inspector stamps hidden by the mount.

I do not know if they were marked any differently (I know that 91/30's had a seven digit serial to the side of their reciever, and Enfields had a 'T' marking along with the code for holland&holland or whoever converted them). Were they also accurized in any additional way? I know that 91/30's had a better metal finish, and the Enfields had a cork bedding."

Good questions but very involved to try and address here.

There were over a half a dozen major scope mounting systems used on 98ks and each has their answers for the questions that you are asking.

With just the turret system it is my understanding that most if not all of the set ups from around 1940 introduction until the mid to later part of 1942 were ordnance jobs done on existing rifles that fired tight enough groups. They used only low turrets.

Starting in 1942 (maybe late that year) Mauser and JP Sauer were contracted to set up the low turret mounted examples. I believe that ordnance authorization was phased out on these at near the same time as a result of the factories getting the mounts and doing the work to a uniform quality standard and formal tested rifles.

High Turrets were cheaper/quicker to make and were in fact the same height outside as the Low turret...inside was the main difference. High turrets were all factory set ups as far as I know. They seem to have started appearing maybe around mid-43, but low turrets continued to be fitted as used up until at least late 1943..with a few maybe found and used in 1944.

Factory sniper rifles were production rifles, no special numbering except on the forward left side of the scope ring or top base edge...depending on the maker. Mauser fitted turret snipers will have a unique placed eagel 135 stamp on the left side receiver to the right of the number.....and somtimes between the serial number and the suffix letter...depending on the placement of the later.

The rifles do not appear to have had any bedding modification or other special work (some saftey flags were milled some to clear the scope) but they were carefully selected and carefully checked during the sniper set up work.

[.303 British]

Thank you both very much for your information, I have a lot to read and learn before buying a rifle. I have purchased the backbone of the Wehrmacht sniper varients book which should help me greatly.

I must say that I am surprised that the K98 I came across is not correct - as it is being sold by a reputable dealer for a very hefty sum indeed.

Nowhere in his write up does he say that it is original or matching, but it is priced at exactly double of what you can buy a good put together with all WW2 parts from.

Bah!

it is very lucky that I posted here I must say! Apart from the dates and the high turrets I was convinced by it.

May I ask how to tell if a bolt has been re-numbered (and other parts). It doesn't appear to have any clear grinding marks, and the finish matches. All I have to compare the rifle to is an R/C that all of the original numbers/finish on the bolt are completely levelled off.

Many thanks, you have saved me a very costly mistake....

[.303 British]

What are your first impressions of this rifle

http://www.classicfirearms.co.uk/shop/viewphoto.php?x=4

Mine are Russian Capture, but original WW2 parts. He says 90% matching but I would bet 90% that it is matched with electropencil.

I can not zoom in far enough to make much out, but it looks like the butt stock has been stamped with a serial.

Note, I have asked both dealers in an email for more details of their rifles mid last week and have had no replies. This increases my suspicions further!

[phild]

The most important bit you did yourself in understanding that high turret mounts could not be correct for that rifle.

I can only go by the photos that you attached, but it looks like the bolt flat had been carefully ground, re-polished and renumbered. The blue on overall rifle also looked suspect but this can be very hard to tell in photos. Some of the finest gunsmiths and firearms retoration capabilities used to be found in England....for hundreds of years! Not so much anymore..a few are still around. The work that I have seen done by English firearms resoration masters can be a thing of beauty... and I'm speaking about perfectly legit work and intentions here.

The most that this rifle could have been originally would have been a period ordnance set up low turret sniper that had the mounts removed and was restored using high turret mounts. It would be probably impossible to determine that because there were no markings or special features used on the early ordnance set ups..other than the scopes and perhaps some machined down saftey flags.

Law's sniper book is ok and has some good information but also some errors and just plain wrong information as well. Senich's (now almost 35 year old) book is probably better..but not great photos. A new sniper book has come in the last year or so from Europe (Austria?) but I do not have it yet so I can say anything about it.

The turret mounts and the LSR are the safest sniper set ups that are likely to be found....LSR a little safer than the turret, but I like the turret's better.