Deutsches Jungvolk knife - real or fantasy?

[Cracked]

The HJ Research forum has tons of information about these supposed Jungvolk and BDM etc knives. Pictures, photos, regulations etc etc. As you read it you begin to see just how flimsy and crazy the dealer arguments are and many of those same tired old arguments are here in this very thread. I wouldn't even butter my toast with a DJ knife let alone collect them..

[Cracked]

On the insurance loss report which was touted by some as the game-changer: it doesn't change anything in my opinion because all it does is list on one single line a number of lost "small HJ" blades. As Frogprince already said, where were the accompanying small grips and scabbards? Were any knives actually made? Just because these alleged DJ knives physically exist today is not evidence for them being period-made/assembled. Anyone who has looked into these knives already knows about the Klaas catalogue from the mid 1930s. We know that these little knives, certainly any marked by Klaas, can be put in a period context. But, noone has yet been ableto put them into a HJ/DJ context (and explained that shoddily applied diamond of course). The insurance loss report may or may not be real but even if it is real it fails to answer any questions. I noticed a moderator citing knife bags as being part of the evidence for DJ knives. Please look at ANY knife bag and see "Deutsches Jungvolk" on it because as we all know, they used thesame knife as the HJ.. Mr Wittman tried and failed with the paper bag story yet it seems there are still people willing to defend almost any theory regardless of how little sense they make.

[dntlss]

Hey guys, my name is Carlos , been here a while,dont post much but do love the forum and the wealth of info it provides plus the access to so many knowledgeable collectors, i had a story i wanted to tell, it kinda relates to the whole thing with this knife but also I'm not contributing a whole bunch to the story after everything that has been said and for that I'm sorry.

I work in a fabrication shop,I'm very lucky to have a job were i can share my love for collecting without being ostracized or being shown the door, heck the owner of our company will ask me sometimes if i have any new "goodies" i might want to show,hes a super nice guy and i couldn't ask for a better boss,only millionaire i know that works from 8am till 9pm every day.

Anyhow, a couple of years ago we hired a new salesman and this guy is really one of a kind,once he found out i was interested in WW2 and its history we got to talking quite a bit,he told me his dad was in WW2 ,i showed him a few things one time and he told me the next day he would bring me a few things his dad brought back.

Next day he comes in with this sack and there were a few bayos,i believe a army dagger and low and behold there is one of these famous little knives this thread is composed of,the ones that are little but without the diamond on the scabbard,as soon as i saw it i remember this thread instantly!!


His dad was not a collector AT ALL,no gun shows in the 60s none of that stuff, i asked him if he knew where the little knife came from,the story he got from his dad is that they were guarding some vehicles parked in a row in some town and one of the Gi's caught these German Hitler youth kids screwing with the tire stem on the tires of the parked vehicles and trying to puncture the sidewall of the tires with several of these little knives plus some others were armed with bayonets so they rounded them up and took them somewhere and the knives confiscated by the soldiers, our salesman father stayed with the vehicles while the kids were hauled away dealt with.

I have worked with this guy and have had many conversations with him and hes as solid guy from my impression,no need to lie about something like that, i understand this doesn't help with the issue of the diamonds on the scabbard problem, i just thought i would share this story as i found it fascinating.


My opinion on the little diamond on the scabbard? i dont think it was ever there to begin with,it just looks like shoddy craftsmanship if you ask me but thats just my opinion,hope everyone is gearing up for a great weekend and thanks for listening to my ramble!

[BobI]

I am sorry dntlss, tell the truth here and you will be ridiculed and told you are full of lies! No way, impossible, these did not exist! People who's only experience is reading the forums and "following the leader"! This is impossible, no way! The countless people with similar experience are all full of it!
Bob

[dntlss]

Ha ha ha, hey Bob,nice to see you around,your one of my favorites,i asked you a couple of months back about a Epack sword but we never really got anything concrete going,did you ever get your website going? i think you told me one of your friends was the one selling things now and you got out of that? anyhow were you being sarcastic in your comment? i just mentioned that this guy i worked with had brought one of the little knives but alas no diamond on it and the opinion of their existence (or lack of) was mine alone.

[BobI]

Hi dntlss!
I remember you! Yes, I was being sarcastic. So many dependable people have vet purchased these over decades from the vet. Some have stories and we are all familiar with the post war produced blades that are out there. These are not that, these were used by the DJ.
I buy and sell real estate now so I don't give a rats a## if anyone buys anything from me or not. I have no reason or care to sell a knife in the hundreds to make a few dollars. It is so much easier to buy a house and make a hell of a lot more. No benefit in fabricating stories!
Take care,
Bob

[dntlss]

I understand,man, good luck on your new venture,you have always been accessible with your info and knowledge and i appreciate that ,take care also.

[BobI]

Thanks!
I will keep being a "dealer" because I love the "stuff" and so many of my friends revolve around the hobby. And, "I just love it"! So, my site will be back and I am here to stay, this is relaxing for me!
Take care,
Bob

[GaryMJ]

I’ve taken some pics of both of the “DJ” knives I have for what it’s worth...

The better conditioned one has a slightly different scabbard than most I’ve seen in that the loop is higher than normal and is the single runner variety. This one did come out of an old estate with some other common German stuff, all apparent War souvenirs, medals, badges, etc, so I believe it’s an old knife, but can’t attest to it being WW2 vintage, it’s possible either way I guess.

The wrecked knife is more typical with the ground-off rivet and double runners and has clearly been used to destruction, hence the missing badge.

I’ve had a few of these over the years, some have appeared locally, and believe me, pickings are slim here. To be honest I don’t know what to make of these, there’s pros & cons in both arguments, but I am certain they are old, it’s just HOW old

[GaryMJ]

Dj2

[Frogprince]

Thanks again for sharing the images . That if looked at closely IMO is visible evidence of postwar fooling around to attach the emblems to make them into “Hitler Youth” knives for the unwary. The timing being the heart of the matter. And if we follow the supposed physical evidence with the “dateable” small aluminum hilted knives it’s 1935 with the “Party Day” knives that showed up in the U.S. in the 1980’s. And/or the different batches of “Olympic” models starting in the 1990’s etc.. But not the TR period Klaas or Dutch Youth small knives which were made using different materials appropriate for the time frame they were manufactured in.

PS: When I was living in Germany some of those who were youngsters at the end of the war told me that it was especially the American GI’s who gave them food when they were having a very hard time staying alive. My point being that looking for food makes more sense. And if uniformed and at least partially armed with Wehrmacht weapons, as period photos show they would have been hauled off to a POW camp like any other combatant. FP

[Mac 66]

Interesting to note the knife with the diamond on the scabbard has only 1 runner inside the scabbard, some of these small knifes have definetely got age to them going by the black enamel paint spidering & cracking & patina, build quality on some is pretty good, question is how old are these small knifes exactly as Garry suggests ?

Thanks for the pix Garry




Regards Mac 66

[Mac 66]

Quote GarryMJ >


"The better conditioned one has a slightly different scabbard than most I’ve seen in that the loop is higher than normal and is the single runner variety"



Hi Garry, can you try & take some pix of the inside of the scabbard please showing the 1 runner & how the diamond is fixed to the scabbard body ?, would be interesting to see, thank you.



Regards Mac 66

[GaryMJ]

Hi Mac,

The runner is secured by the rivet on the scabbard front, so it obscures the view of the pinned diamond. The diamond wiggles slightly, so it is pinned into place rather than glued. Clearly the diamond was attached prior to the runner being riveted into place, unlike the other example I show which has evidence of grind marks from the removal of the original rivet so the diamond could be retro-fitted onto the scabbard.

Red

[Mac 66]

Hi Mac,

The runner is secured by the rivet on the scabbard front, so it obscures the view of the pinned diamond. The diamond wiggles slightly, so it is pinned into place rather than glued. Clearly the diamond was attached prior to the runner being riveted into place, unlike the other example I show which has evidence of grind marks from the removal of the original rivet so the diamond could be retro-fitted onto the scabbard.

Red

Thanks Red, that is good info to know !




Cheers Mac 66