Deutsches Jungvolk knife - real or fantasy?

[BobI]

I'm not Rohm. He was killed. There is no deception here, certainly not on my part. On pages 22, 23 and 24 you said one thing directly about the knife: that they were not "issue pieces". Am I missing something here? Which knife was not an issue piece Bob? The one with, or the one without scabbard diamond? It really is a such a simple question but it has dragged on for pages now and has so far resulted in one member ban, 10 infraction points for me and zero progress.

If you don't want to answer the question please just say so and then stop directing posts at me.

Since you do not understand why Rohm was removed or penalized from the forum, I suspect you are probably getting close to joining him.

[Garry M.]

Oh, I see. I actually thought that you were talking about what you had said about the little knives. I understand you perfectly now. So, rather than indulging me and answering that simple question you would prefer to wait until a moderator shuts me up for you? For my part, this discussion with you is going to end now because I can see that the directness and honesty you require from me is not going to be reciprocated.

[jimmy72]

Hi,

The thread where you stated that these small DJ knives are real is recent. It is more recent than most, if not all, of your posts in this thread and after having gone through all 24 pages again today I do not see where you gave an explanation for why you think they are real. Yes, you mentioned private-purchase, not issued which is fine but there are two types of this knife: one with and one without scabbard diamond. A version without diamond can be shown to have existed in the TR although not as a DJ knife (or BDM). The version with diamond cannot be shown to have existed during the period. Which of those two types of the small knife do you consider to be the real one? That is all I would like to know and it appears to be all that the expelled member wanted to know. A quick precis of your opinion on the knives would be great. If you prefer you can just post a link to the post or posts where you made your position clear. Thanks.

Well said , Garry ! Simple question begging the simple answer .

[BobI]

Why is it so hard fro you guys to go back and read the previous pages of this thread?
Your answers are all there, too bad newer people read what you guys post and all you do is confuse them!
Simple questions have simple answers (which you guys know),
all you need to do is read! The answers are all there!
Bob

Well said , Garry ! Simple question begging the simple answer .

[Frogprince]

Hey Mac!
Just so you know, my theory is these were not "issue" pieces. I say that for a few reasons, drop me an email and I will share my reasons with you.
Frog, I agree some of the pieces you show are fake. Rohm, can you bring something new to the table and not your twisted reinterpretation of my words?
Bob (post # 321 re: post # 317)

In hotly contested discussions it's not very often that one side (or the other) concedes to a point made by the other side - so I was pleasantly surprised when Bob agreed with my assessment of some pictures that I posted. It seems that we are in agreement that faking has been going by using pictures, that I thought were fairly straightforward, which saved having to explain why. But as an assist for the ‘new guys’ in collecting I would like to add something for those who might have tremendous expertise in their chosen fields, but not necessarily as it relates to knives/daggers and/or manufacturing. Using just the one prior image, here is the so-called “RZM" example I posted - drawing attention in the image to the bright metal very narrow rings around the holes. Being one of the ways that you can use to determine that a so-called “DJ” knife was modified well after the scabbards were made. Of course that’s not really something new. Because as early as post # 144 about 5 years ago there was another example that was pointed out that had some issues - but as more new information has gradually been accumulating it’s another factor to look at that’s now coming into better focus. FP

[Garry M.]

Well said , Garry ! Simple question begging the simple answer .

Thanks Jimmy. I thought so too but some would prefer to obscure the matter rather than to put a little effort into this in order to enable others to clearly understand their position after a number of years and 24 pages. I could go through the thread and do the work myself but it is unclear whether the member means his own comments about the knives or those of others who agree with him. It would be much simpler for him to simply state his position but he prefers not to do so. His prerogative of course but rather unhelpful at the same time.



FP,

Yes, the dreadful "workmanship" evident on these knives and the shoddy placement of a diamond such that it would snag and get knocked about in normal use can really only lead to one conclusion but this has failed thus far to impress those who continue to see these knives in a period context.

I was thinking about other things that we might look at and I think that you are already doing so after reading your question about the PUMA logo. Regarding the number of manufacturers whose logos we see on these knives today and the market for which they were allegedly producing the knives I was wondering whether the logos themselves might allow some filtering to be achieved.

As we know, the Klaas knife is pictured in a late 1930s catalogue so it is the only version which can definitely be placed in the TR. It was not pictured with a diamond scabbard and the catalogue makes no association between it and the Deutsches Jungvolk. Klaas' HJ/DJ Fahrtenmesser is however clearly labelled as such so I'm just wondering how many Klaas-marked "DJ" knives (with or without diamond) you have seen because they seem to be rare. Obviously there are Hörster, PUMA and Voos versions and a larger percentage of knives with no markings at all and it seems odd to me that at least four companies were apparently making the same product for a market that is not immediately apparent. Perhaps it was only one company supplying knives to the other three so that they could etch their logo but nevertheless, the question of course is : where was the large market for these little knives? In the late-1930s (date of the Klaas catalogue) boys in the HJ and DJ had already had a dedicated knife for years so would they be buying a second mini-version of that? The 1936 Olympic knives and the 1935 RPT knives have been discredited so they are extremely unlikely to have accounted for a share pre-1945 and I just cannot see where the market lay for these firms.

I have read about a theory that places production of the small knife into the pre-1933 period with the theory being that they were produced for the HJ/DJ market prior to the introduction of a standardised knife in 1933 but if four, three or even just one firm produced them pre-1933 I find it a long stretch to imagine that a big box full of them (or parts of them) languished in a Solingen factory between 1933 and the 1960s where they are reported to have been found by Atwood/Johnson. Surely it would make more sense for a company to reuse the materials for the production of the standard HJ/DJ knife between 1933 and 1943 when production ended?

The Klaas catalogue proves that this company at least saw a market for the small knife post-1933 but again, who would be buying it? Or was Klaas just trying to shift a batch of knives that it had produced prior to realising that the RJF had decided on a standardised HJ/DJ knife?

These knives (without scabbard diamond) were being sold by House of Swords and Militaria as evidenced by their catalogues number 10 and 32 in the late-70s and mid-80s respectively so either they found their own box of knives in Solingen or the Atwood/Johnson find was much larger then we think or... something else happened. House of Militaria, as you will know, did not enjoy the best of reputations.

AnywayFP, what I'm getting at with all of this is whether we can exclude, through examination of the manufacturers' marks and how they were applied, any of these knives as being from the period and therefore place them into the post-war era? Clearly, any knives that can be filtered in that way and that have the diamond can be "outed" further. Who knows? This approach may actually provide support for the argument that some knives, despite the absolutely shoddy workmanship may well be late-war although I seriously doubt it.

Do you have any pictures on file of the inside of a scabbard where the diamond is still attached i.e. is the diamond used the same type that was used on the standard HJ/DJ? Have any DJ knives been found with fake diamonds? I have read that Klaas produced these knives post-war. Can these newer knives be separated from pre-1945 Klaas knives in any way?

[BobI]

Fred,
I do agree, I must admit I have not gone back to look at all of your pictures again. However, I do remember some of the pictures you posted. Some are outright fakes and some are modified, for example. Placing a RZM where it is on that one knife is absolutely asinine!
We may not always agree but on "some" of these we do!
Thanks!
Bob

[Frogprince]

Fred,
I do agree, I must admit I have not gone back to look at all of your pictures again. However, I do remember some of the pictures you posted. Some are outright fakes and some are modified, for example. Placing a RZM where it is on that one knife is absolutely asinine!
We may not always agree but on "some" of these we do!
Thanks!
Bob

Bob, Danke that's one of the examples that really got to me as just an outright fake. What in the .... were they thinking??? Fred

[Frogprince]

Garry, Lots to address here is a partial reply: For the alleged period PUMA markings I posted I imagine you already know this, but to cover the bases, in a period context GES. GESCHÜTZT was used as a legal protection that’s seen on early period HJ items, with some as it relates to the many items made for HJ use also having RZM markings. The thinking there being as I understand it that the RZM license was adequate. And while not being a problem the oftentimes abbreviated form of Geseztlich Geschutz could be considered redundant with NSDAP items because they were already under RZM jurisdiction. With the major issue of course for the "PUMA" posted here being in that time period they supposedly omitted the GES. GESCHÜTZ ? (Whomever it was that imported these "PUMA" knives for sale to collectors really needs to fire the company that actually made them for being incompetent.)

I also have a little to add to the House of Swords story having a long while back been approached at a major show by a former customer complete with his catalog carrying a large number of swords (one of my areas of specialization). With the exception of one very minor period Austrian sword the rest of the swords were all postwar fakes with no real value other than to hang them on a wall for decoration. As for Atwood, who besides popularizing TR daggers which was not a bad thing, he also did a lot of damage to TR collecting but he’s before my time. Although years later I met and on occasion have discussed Atwood with one of his former distributors (really more of a collector who obtained TR items in bulk from him). Not just blades, when he discovered that Atwood was selling him postwar fakes that he had unknowingly sold to others he broke off the relationship and had nothing good to say about him.

For the early iron/steel hilted Klaas knives I have no problem with them being period, and would also cite period physical evidence in the form of RZM documentation and legitimate period HJ/DJ knives. Whereas the aluminum hilted so-called “BDM/DJ” series of knives are extremely problematic. That said, some dated/datable legitimate political daggers and knives do use aluminum components, but they are few and far between falling into a specific time period. Which of course is before the actual 1942 cutoff for civilian market production that was followed up with period documentation for a halt to non-military series prodution. But what really gets me wondering about the supposed knowledge and expertise of some in TR collecting is with the idea of “late war”, “last ditch”, etc. etc. Because the facts which are easily provable including period documentation - is that besides civilian and RZM items it also includes Himmler’s halt for his awards of the SS Leader’s swords because of a lack of steel, what Albert Speer documented, German Army directives and so on. I could go on here about the wartime programs to defend Germany that were very adversely affected by shortages …………. so instead of tanks and submarines they made a bunch of small knives for children??? Or as some might claim the HJ/DJ and “DJ” knives are supposed to be interchangeable? Really? Where does it say that?

As for the physical evidence I’ve already posted some, but it’s a work in progress, not unlike some past fakes that have been discussed at length. Citing for example the NSKK High Leader Hühnlein fakes, the SA Birdhead daggers (one of “Atwood’s” special projects) etc. that all rapidly disappeared from public view when questions were asked (although eventually I was able to get some high resolution images of how they were done). So I will stop for now, and check back later to see what I haven’t as yet answered. Fred

[Frogprince]

Garry, Personally having a better opinion of period German manufacturing standards there will not be an argument from me that the placement of the diamond like that on the outside of (supposedly) a young or very young boy's scabbard is not a tad on the moronic side. Which might be the reason that fakers made later “product improvement models” which are the BDM/DJ style knives with the HJ emblem in the grip (as posted below). As for the logos it’s hard to say if the different logos can be tied to a specific company or importer (postwar of course). What can be said is that they seem to be made in multiple batches of higher and lower quality with a lot of room in between. And etching must be easy enough to have faked that all you have to do is look at the many known postwar TR fakes, so it must not be that hard to find somebody to do it.

Of course every so often there can be an occasion where somebody has bad days, and makes mistakes. With a couple of the images posted below showing a faker's test etch where that happened using a heavily aged old original HJ knifes as a test platform. That now has a “Party Day” motif etched onto it. Drawing attention to a partially omitted umlaut (Ü) as a fairly obvious ‘ooopsie' that reminds me a little of the "PUMA" that had no GES. GESCHÜTZ. With the digitally inverted image I think better illustrating the pinhole type of deep pitting that was partly polished off to do the faker's test etching.

Regarding the actual period iron/steel small knives by Klaas they are fairly scarce as a group, recalling I think seeing just one that was postwar modified into the “DJ” type. That of course being the reason why so many of these no maker (and the other than Klaas logos) small aluminum types are seen in circulation. With the reason being that there was a limited supply of the early iron/steel knives produced most likely due to uncertain times in Germany as it was trying to regain its economic footing. I’m also OK with pre-1933 time period for the Klaas knives because my imperfect recollection is that there is a 1932 catalog with the knives in it.

With some of my arguments for not later than 1942 for the HJ and other political and nonpolitical daggers etc. (excepting military issue blades) based on multiple factors: Himmler’s directive as it regarded steel quotas. The steep decline in quality from Solingen for ordinary military issue blades. No 1943 dates seen on political RZM blades. And fewer from 1942, which might be open to debate. Lastly, I have a lot of pictures that are not that well organized mixed in with a lots of pictures of other things which is really in need of a serious reorganization. So as I find them I will set them aside for posting at some point if needed to illustrate a point. Which is why I’m currently using mostly some of the already posted pictures I’ve used because they are better organized. Fred

[Garry M.]

That's great Fred. Many thanks for the information. I was just wondering whether you have pictures on file of a "DJ" with black grips and inset diamond? Also, do you happen to know whether the Klaas knives used for the small version of the Brannik knife are steel/iron?

[Frogprince]

That's great Fred. Many thanks for the information. I was just wondering whether you have pictures on file of a "DJ" with black grips and inset diamond? Also, do you happen to know whether the Klaas knives used for the small version of the Brannik knife are steel/iron?

Garry, Although I have a lot of images of the "BDM/DJ" knife variations I'm not sure if I have an image or not of a black handled "DJ" with an emblem inset in the handle. And my weekend time-wise is mostly spoken for, so it could take some time to try and go through my files. As for the Bulgarian Brannick knives they are outside my areas of interest - but I do recall quite while back a discussion that had someone from there as a participant on another forum. I don't remember much of the discussion, but with the knives from Klaas that had aged/corroded handles it looked like they had iron oxide (rust) inside the pitting. Fred

[Frogprince]

Unlike the IMO fantasy "DJ" series of small aluminum hilted knives, there is confirmation from multiple sources that the period Brannik knives with the stamped Klaas logo do not have aluminum hilts. Instead they have magnetic iron/steel hilts. With the Brannik organization itself (if I got it correctly) becoming established by law well after Germany had established itself in Europe, and just a few days before the end of 1940. Sometimes there is nothing like doing a little 'reality check' to see what really happened. FP

[Garry M.]

...Sometimes there is nothing like doing a little 'reality check' to see what really happened. FP

Yes indeed That is good confirmation for the Brannik knives which gives us very useful indirect evidence that speaks against the aliminium Klaas in its many and varied guises. Many thanks Fred.

[Garry M.]

Was just looking into the maker mark theory and I think that the Hörster "DJ "knives could be discounted.



From left to right:

bogus Hörster HJ, "DJ" knife by Hörster, good Hörster HJ (Klaas RZM number and Hörster blade - not unknown for this to happen with makers as you'll know).

To my knowledge, Hörster did not use a logo on its TR HJ knives but used instead a stamp as with the knife on the right. This would allow us to exclude "DJ" knives like the one in the middle as definite trash. Unless, of course, it can be established that Hörster used the logo on civilian items.

There is also this to throw into the mix of course:



Recently sold by Ratisbons. A supposed advertisement by Hörster offering small knives (and razor blades with every order if you want them) in Sept 1944 due to them not being exported as planned. Could be real may also very much not be. It doesn't help us with the maker mark theory but it's more for the pot.