Deutsches Jungvolk knife - real or fantasy?

[Röhm1929]

Deleted sentence by Serge M. - PM sent -

However, even if true it won't be anything YOU said on the thread that would convince someone to buy one of these - unless of course the "deal" was 50 bucks for the dodgy knife, a link to this thread and a big bag full of caveat.

Let me remind you: here

Just for reader clarity: the removed sentence consisted of just one word. It was not a swear word but rather a value judgement made in response to Bob Iqbal's claim in this post that a customer recently bought a so-called "DJ" knife based on information contained in this post. The latter of those two posts uses quotes from Bob Iqbal in order to demonstrate that he did not once define his often-used terms "real" and "these knives are real", these being claims which, if not defined, are meaningless.

Anyone looking to buy or sell one of these knives would do well to remember that there is no verifiable evidence that these knives existed during the TR and that they were used by the DJ.

[Frogprince]

A few more examples of the “DJ” knives: The first one showing a large gap to one side that would not take much to get it to fall off.



Another "DJ" with an all around large air gap that’s also a good candidate for the emblem falling off. And if you think this is the worst of the lot it’s not, some are a LOT worse.



Are the “DJ” knives TR period modifications as some have stated or just another scam targeting collectors? The example here showing an aged/corroded knife and scabbard exterior - but the holes for the emblem appear to be relatively fresh. Which I don’t think takes a rocket scientist to be able to detect a scam and know that it’s a modification that was performed much later.



Same scabbard from a different angle show fresh looking drilled holes.



And another that’s aged but in better condition still showing that it’s done after the manufacturing process. And the pile of scabbards that are DOA from emblems falling off keeps getting larger. So imagine what it would be like if they were actually period used and abused like some of the legitimate period HJ/DJ knives - instead of just being handled and/or carried around looking for buyers??



Not that it really seems to affect some of those who continue to sell these kinds of blades. I’ve even seen some of the small aluminum hilted knives labeled as “last ditch”. Which is something that I think would be ludicrous to a serious German arms collector because there are those who actually specialize in that area and these knives are not “last ditch”. (Although some of the small aluminum “Olympic” examples in circulation supposedly from the mid 1930’s can certainly qualify as being from less competent/substandard makers.) FP

[Will M.]

Just for reader clarity: the removed sentence consisted of just one word. It was not a swear word but rather a value judgement made in response to Bob Iqbal's claim in this post that a customer recently bought a so-called "DJ" knife based on information contained in this post. The latter of those two posts uses quotes from Bob Iqbal in order to demonstrate that he did not once define his often-used terms "real" and "these knives are real", these being claims which, if not defined, are meaningless.

Anyone looking to buy or sell one of these knives would do well to remember that there is no verifiable evidence that these knives existed during the TR and that they were used by the DJ.

After reading all of the post I am amazed that this knife is so doubted. I have never been a collector of TR edge weapons but in collecting endeavors have acquired a number. At the age of 6 I acquired one of these from one of my uncles....that was 1950.......he was infantry and this was one of the few German relics he brought back. I do not have the knife now so what I am writing can be taken as a grain of salt..........I just continue to be amazed at what has been written in this thread.

[Serge M.]

After reading all of the post I am amazed that this knife is so doubted. I have never been a collector of TR edge weapons but in collecting endeavors have acquired a number. At the age of 6 I acquired one of these from one of my uncles....that was 1950.......he was infantry and this was one of the few German relics he brought back. I do not have the knife now so what I am writing can be taken as a grain of salt..........I just continue to be amazed at what has been written in this thread.

Will, Don't be surprised as this is now the 'nature' of the hobby, and unfortunately one of the reasons why many will not post their artifacts on a forum anymore.

Regarding 'period originality'; I have purchased rare honor daggers, that were first posted on a forum, that were deemed 'fake' by the members. Another time I recall getting a scarce model dagger by a rare maker that was first deemed a 'parts humper', by forum members. When I contacted the nephew on the dagger he told me stated; 'My uncle brought this back from the war, and it was in a sock drawer most of the time'.
I purchased the dagger, and upon receipt, sure enough, it was a factory example that was never opened and 100% period original.

So take what ever you may like on these forums, knowing that these are 'opinions' and are only as good as the experience of the poster.

Regards,
Serge

[Mac 66]

The main reason for this thread is that these small knifes are supposed to be related & issued to the DJ , BUT there is NO period evidence to prove this fact & no one has shown any other solid evidence to back up there claims !


Question is when were these small knifes with aluminium hilts manufactured, pre war, wartime or post war ?


We know that the steel hilt KLAAS version that Victorman shows in his period catalogue is a pre war knife & that one is not related to the DJ.


Regards Mac 66

[BobI]

Hey Mac!
Just so you know, my theory is these were not "issue" pieces. I say that for a few reasons, drop me an email and I will share my reasons with you.
Frog, I agree some of the pieces you show are fake. Rohm, can you bring something new to the table and not your twisted reinterpretation of my words?
Bob

[Mac 66]

Hey Mac!
Just so you know, my theory is these were not "issue" pieces. I say that for a few reasons, drop me an email and I will share my reasons with you.

Bob

Yeah Bob i know you told me that before, private purchase i think you told me or vet bring back, vet purchase, where is the relation to the small DJ kids ? or is it because the small kids have small hands to hold this small knife ?

its a never ending saga.......



Cheers Mac 66

[Frogprince]

Yeah Bob i know you told me that before, private purchase i think you told me or vet bring back, vet purchase, where is the relation to the small DJ kids ? or is it because the small kids have small hands to hold this small knife ?

its a never ending saga.......



Cheers Mac 66

That's why I think a while back the "experts" had the BDM theory for a girls small dainty hands. Of course then reality set in, and they had to find the younger small boys as the supposed customers for the Munchkin size knives. FP

[Frogprince]

As for veterans, I’ve had occasions where I’ve purchased period blades from families of deceased veterans where I was and still am very pleased with them, but I’ve also had times when I had to regrettably tell the family that they were all postwar. So while I very much respect veterans for their service - my focus has to be on the item itself and how it compares to known period artifacts.

With the “big picture” here which may or may not be a topic that anyone wants to discuss being this: The plain no emblem knives could possibly be debated as being earlier TR period, but if actually late period as some argue (but not later than 1942) they should have zinc based hilts like the RZM daggers. However, postwar is no problem because the landscape was littered with aircraft and aluminum was available in quantity and a lot easier to “mine” for its scrap metal value in the earlier postwar years. I’ve also shown and (I think) even Bob agrees that almost anyone can see how the knives I posted were relatively freshly modified ie: fakes.

But what about their very close cousins which are the “Olympic” and the other small aluminum hilted knives that come with a variety of ‘bells and whistles’ added. Like decorated blades, different grips, etc. etc. that are being sold to collectors. Some of which are so badly constructed that it defies common sense from my perspective that they are actually TR period - but who knows maybe someone wants to come to their defense? FP

[Röhm1929]

Rohm, can you bring something new to the table and not your twisted reinterpretation of my words?
Bob

"these are real"

"real"


↑↑↑ These are your own words. I have not twisted anything. You have consistently failed to define those terms in the context of this thread so I'll make it simple for you:

Which knife do you consider to be "real"?

a. The small knife with the scabbard diamond?
b. the small knife with no diamond on the scabbard?

Can you prove a link between these little knives and the Deutsches Jungvolk?

a. yes
b. no

The knife you sold recently... how did you describe it i.e. what did the buyer buy?

a. a "DJ" knife
b. a generic knife whose purpose has not yet been identified

[BobI]

Rohm,
You bring up old words that have been debated to death, do you understand the definition of the word new?
Time to just hit "ignore" ahhh. much better!

[Röhm1929]

"these are real"

"real"


↑↑↑ These are your own words. I have not twisted anything. You have consistently failed to define those terms in the context of this thread so I'll make it simple for you:

Which knife do you consider to be "real"?

a. The small knife with the scabbard diamond?
b. the small knife with no diamond on the scabbard?

Can you prove a link between these little knives and the Deutsches Jungvolk?

a. yes
b. no

The knife you sold recently... how did you describe it i.e. what did the buyer buy?

a. a "DJ" knife
b. a generic knife whose purpose has not yet been identified

Rohm,
You bring up old words that have been debated to death, do you understand the definition of the word new?
Time to just hit "ignore" ahhh. much better!

These are simple questions Bob Iqbal. Your use of the terms "real" and "these knives are real" has not been debated to death because a debate requires at least two people to take part. You are not taking part and are instead dodging the questions asked of you. Remember, you bragged about selling one of these knives recently. If you sold it as "DJ" then justification is required.

Either you have a position on these knives sir, or you do not. What is it to be?

[Serge M.]

This thread seems to have come to a end, perhaps prematurely, or perhaps after 22 pages there is nothing 'new' forthcoming. Unfortunately this is reminding me of a record where although it was fine up toward the end where it reaches the point where it is damaged and 'skips', thus gets annoying.

If there is nothing further to contribute, I will consider closing it, although I wish parties would not keep pounding their old positions down to the center of the earth, with personal style of 'in your face' personal borderline intimidation posts to deliver 'proof' with repetitive 3rd degree style questioning.

If there is is nothing 'new', then these knifes will remain questionable to some, period originals to some, or fake post war enhanced, to some others.

Best of Hunt,
Serge

[Frogprince]

This thread seems to have come to a end, perhaps prematurely, or perhaps after 22 pages there is nothing 'new' forthcoming. Unfortunately this is reminding me of a record where although it was fine up toward the end where it reaches the point where it is damaged and 'skips', thus gets annoying.

If there is nothing further to contribute, I will consider closing it, although I wish parties would not keep pounding their old positions down to the center of the earth, with personal style of 'in your face' personal borderline intimidation posts to deliver 'proof' with repetitive 3rd degree style questioning.

If there is is nothing 'new', then these knifes will remain questionable to some, period originals to some, or fake post war enhanced, to some others.

Best of Hunt,
Serge

Serge, In agreement that when things become confrontational as we’ve seen with some threads, it can take a nasty turn and quickly degenerate into name calling and some of the other kinds of behavior that doesn’t do anything to advance the hobby in a positive way. I’ve also seen threads that have sporadically gone on for years before they reached an equilibrium with an outcome that not everybody might immediately agree on - but eventually a new standard is set citing just one example that’s the oldest one that I remember being: “The Grip Color Debate” which of course is not the only topic that no longer generates a controversy.

As for new information - I don’t believe that I posted the pictures of the relatively newly drilled holes in the DJ scabbards before which is a piece of visible physical evidence that I think has a direct bearing on the topic. It's something that I came across as I was looking for something else, and I'm rediscovering that I need to do a serious reorganization of my system but don’t really have the time now to do it.

So personally I would like to see the thread stay open. With maybe a short timeout, so that things cool down a little, and allow anyone who has or wants to participate to gather their thoughts and information from either side of the fence. But you're the one in charge that has to deal with maintaining a reasonably respectful forum for all of the members ..... which is not always an easy task. Best Regards, Fred

[Röhm1929]

This thread seems to have come to a end, perhaps prematurely, or perhaps after 22 pages there is nothing 'new' forthcoming. Unfortunately this is reminding me of a record where although it was fine up toward the end where it reaches the point where it is damaged and 'skips', thus gets annoying.

If there is nothing further to contribute, I will consider closing it, although I wish parties would not keep pounding their old positions down to the center of the earth, with personal style of 'in your face' personal borderline intimidation posts to deliver 'proof' with repetitive 3rd degree style questioning.

If there is is nothing 'new', then these knifes will remain questionable to some, period originals to some, or fake post war enhanced, to some others.

Best of Hunt,
Serge

I'm sorry but this is to allow participants to say just exactly what they like without ever having to justify it. Endless polite chatter or the closure of threads is not the solution to contentious issues in my opinion.

Edit; by Serge M. The thread is too valuable to close due to someone who can't follow the rules. Continued Personal Bashing is a violation of forum rules. You were warned. Now infraction given. Any further debate with me and you will be taking time off from the forum.

Unless required to respond, I will avoid this thread as I would like to see it remain open for new additions - from both sides of the discussion.