Deutsches Jungvolk knife - real or fantasy?

[popcorn]

In the process of documenting these fakes there was one example that had an added “RZM” marking that was stamped next to one of holes that were drilled. The drilling of course also making the interior scabbard liner a twisted mess. 4th Reich workmanship at its best!!

And seeing that some of my earlier images seem to have dropped off the server, while I don’t have time at the moment to add them back in. In lieu of that also posted is one of the later generation trademarked/maker marked fakes that are also seen in circulation from the “usual” sources.

PS: I image that are also some owners-dealers out there who are hoping that their very expensive "SS-Champagne decal helmet" fakes are somehow going to be rehabilitated back into anything other than postwar fakes. FP

Wow what a mess. What's your take on the supposed "real" versions. Are they even period made knives?

[popcorn]

Hey Mac!
That is what I mean, so many people have bought these directly form the vets "with the diamond" on the scabbard. I have also seen many that did not have it. My suspicion is these were civilian knives that were modified by the store or factory after the knife was made. I say that because if you look at one I feel is original you can tell the knife was completed and then modified. They would grind down the rivet to remove the scabbard spring and then drill and add the emblem and reassbble the scabbard.
It is not one or two people, ask anyone who has done hotel buys or classified adds years ago who bought these.
Just explaining my reasoning and experience. I have not bought or sold one of these in many years now. And again, it looks like I will not be a full time dealer much longer so all I care about is my own collecting interest. I will still have my site and do this for enjoyment since I do love the hobby! Secondly, the vast majority of my social network is through the hobby too!!
Best Wishes,
Bob

Thank you for your feedback on these. My opinion stands that these are post war put togethers. these are some of my thoughts.
1 the original knives even if period have no connection to the youth organization. They already had a knife for it.
2 that late in the war many of the HJ were pressed into service. If they were given a blade wouldn't it have been the standard K98 Bayonet with rifle?
3 no period documents indicate a separate knife for the DJ at any point during the TR period.
4 Vets have been know to alter items and make up stories.
5 Old dealers like Atwood made a lot of parts/fantasy knives.
6 Why aluminum when other real HJ knives were steel(early) or zinc(late)? Seems to indicate post war production.
7 you indicated these were completed then modified after. This to me seems to show they never were originally intended for the youth and are 100% parts knives(the ones with the diamond added to the scabbard).

[Garry M.]

Hey Mac!
I have to go but, as Ron and many others have found and just with the other items we mentioned. Too, too many of these have been bought too many times directly from the veteran over the decades. From guys that were not there during the occupation days. So, like I said, I have a couple but I will not sell them nor will I buy more. I am comfortable with them and since it looks like very shortly I will be 90% collector and 10% dealer for fun, I will just enjoy them until perhaps some day we find evidence to satisfy the masses.
Take care my friend!
Bob

At the risk of not being nice, the above statement is the real state of play chaps. Any counter-argument is pointless because the vet-buy and the prominent dealer name-drop are clearly all-powerful even in the face of black and white evidence to the contrary. In a very telling sentence Mr Iqbal states that these little knives will remain authentic TR pieces to him:

"until perhaps some day we find evidence to satisfy the masses."

Note the use of "we" and "the masses". An uncharitable person might feel justified in replacing those two words with "dealers" and "dumb collectors" respectively but if we leave that aside, Mr Iqbal has not shown himself to be in a position thus far to assist in the provision of evidence in support of these knives so it seems a strange formulation to see himself as being in a position to help - either way.

He appears (to me) to be saying that he trusts Weinand, Wittmann, Johnson (possibly even Atwood??) and his own unlettered opinion much more than any silly primary source and this is why I said that counter-argument is pointless. It is pointless because whilst offering zero in the way of verifiable evidence themselves, the prominent fans of these little knives simply continue to ignore and (attempt to) refute any and all evidence/analysis provided by the doubters. This is a crazy situation but one that we know all too well.

[BobI]

Gary,
Your closed mind not willing to listen to any other variables or experiences of people who have done this since the 50s is detrimental to the hobby. Same exact scenario as the RK and DKiG I mentioned earlier, in time I was proven right on each count.
You can have your opinion, that is fine. However, having information presented by dozens or more people must mean "something"?
I am now buying and selling real estate, I am not worried about being "PC" anymore. I will continue to be a dealer for fun but don't really care if I sell another item in my life.
I will not respond to this topic again.
PS- DJ knives exist and were made during the period.

[Mac 66]

No matter what Wittmann , Ron W, T, Johnson, or what any other dealer says about DJ knifes these days no one will listen, DJ knifes are now scrap to collectors, the party is over for the dealer believers who are the only people that seem to think these silly knifes are genuine

[Frogprince]

Gary,
Your closed mind not willing to listen to any other variables or experiences of people who have done this since the 50s is detrimental to the hobby. Same exact scenario as the RK and DKiG I mentioned earlier, in time I was proven right on each count.
You can have your opinion, that is fine. However, having information presented by dozens or more people must mean "something"?
I am now buying and selling real estate, I am not worried about being "PC" anymore. I will continue to be a dealer for fun but don't really care if I sell another item in my life.
I will not respond to this topic again.
PS- DJ knives exist and were made during the period.

Bob, No offense, but I heard the same arguments repeatedly about the Hühnlein postwar NSKK fakes that were a combination of the old and and new so I’m not really that impressed with “personal experiences” etc. etc. (photos on request). As for the topic at hand, do you agree with this (very slightly redacted) advertising that explains the so-called “Whatever” knife, with no emblem at all (zero, nada), as the new standard Hitler Youth knife??? Do you think that this individual who a relatively short while back was selling what looked to me like a 30 or so year collection of leftover political dagger parts (I would have imagined for future ‘projects’). That were very crudely assembled and advertised as “last ditch” political daggers, so do you think that he even knows what legitimate last ditch items look like??

Also posted below are a few additional images with one showing how fragile and damage prone the mounting was of the emblems that were attached to the scabbards - and why many are broken off. Do you think that the Germans in the TR period were that foolish in manufacturing knives that were supposedly going to be given to children - to be used and abused in their normal activities?? And another one showing typical 4th Reich workmanship in assembling the blades to the handles that is seen with some of them. FP

[popcorn]

No matter what Wittmann , Ron W, T, Johnson, or what any other dealer says about DJ knifes these days no one will listen, DJ knifes are now scrap to collectors, the party is over for the dealer believers who are the only people that seem to think these silly knifes are genuine

100% correct. These dealers need them to be real because there is money tied up in them and will keep defending them.

FP Great pictures showing the shoddy work of these things and your term "whatever" knives is spot on.

Bob Time for a reality check. These knives never were for the HJ/DJ or any other party. The ones with the diamond on the scabbard are frankenstiened put together post war.

[Victorman]

[Victorman]

For those who don't have a Klaas 193X catalog...

[Frogprince]

Thank you for this latest addition to the thread. I can't quite read the description at the bottom of the page - could you please post that information as well. FP

[Mac 66]

Herman,


Is the hilt/fingerguard made from steel or aluminium on your KLAAS knife ?

what is your opinion on these knifes as to being described as DJ knifes ?



Thanks Mac 66.

[Barry Brown]

Attached extract from an early Klass catalogue . Their Fahrtenmesser #203 is for both HJ and DJ.

[Mac 66]

Attached extract from an early Klass catalogue . Their Fahrtenmesser #203 is for both HJ and DJ.

Thanks Barry for this important piece of solid proof that the only issued weapon to the HJ & DJ boys was the Hitler Youth Knife


Not a DJ knife




Regards Mac 66.

[Frogprince]

My 1938 Klass catalog also shows item # 203 (paired with an SA-NSKK dagger) as the Fahrtenmesser for the HJ and DJ, with the price list showing an "Original - HJ.- Fahrtenmesser" @ 3 RM. FP

[popcorn]

Thank you Herman and Barry for posting the catalog info. No connection of these knives to the HJ/DJ according to period catalogs.
No "last ditch" late war variant.