Deutsches Jungvolk knife - real or fantasy?

[inimicus]

yes, a sensational object indeed; thanks, barry.

[RussellM]

Simply outstanding Barry!

The bag is marked the same way as the catalogues, meaning the knife was issued to both the HJ and the DJ.

Thanks for taking the time to post this beautiful example.

Regards

Russ

[Barry Brown]

Not mine, alas, but pictures that reinforce a point made several times in this thread - that the standard HJ knife was the official knife for HJ and DJ members.

I have not seen a period in-wear photo of the small knives with HJ insignia nor a period reference to them.

[Larry Lipps]

obviously anyone not returning buyers' hard-earned lucre must be outted and condemn'd. anyone know of dealers who HAVE NOT returned the $ for these knives when asked to?

While not entering the debate on these knives, this, to me, is a somewhat dangerous attitude for the collecting community as a whole. Anyone can say something is bad, as it requires no proof what so ever. If I ever get tired of my collection, I can just claim everything I ever bought is bad and send it back for a refund. With the amount of debate these have spurred, it's obvious to me that there are dealers and collectors who believe these to be period original. Other's don't. Personally I would be very offended for someone to say I should be "outted and condemned" for selling something that at the time was accepted as original. There was a time that a ton of heartburn over flawed Knights Crosses caused similar outrage and condemnation. How long did we search for a photo of a retired pilot's badge in wear? Because the circumstantial evidence is against these, I probably would not want one for my collection. Still, with all the crooks selling proven bad items, I hate to see people put on trial for something they may have done in good faith.

[inimicus]

Thanks a lot for that, larry. You've helped undergird a subordinate point; namely, if you don't like something just return it - but importantly, within the stipulated inspection period, of course.

And if there are money-back refusals, it's only right that members know who these 'refuseniks' are. Or isn't it?

I ask again: Is anyone aware of instances of small knives that sellers have refused to take back? Or, per disbelievers, are gulled buyers simply too embarrassed to admit it? Im which case we'd never know would we.... Cheers, dw

[BobI]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Hi Larry!
It only took one person to destroy the S+L RKs credibility for several years, again, from experience I did defend these crosses against many other people. As I have done with a variant DKiG and these.
What I consider useful are the arguments presented by people who have done serious research into the topic, not just from forum lore. People with first hand experience with these and not "stuff" pulled out of a hat. This way we can all learn!
Best Wishes,
Bob

[Larry Lipps]

Thanks a lot for that, larry. You've helped undergird a subordinate point; namely, if you don't like something just return it - but importantly, within the stipulated inspection period, of course.

Let's understand, the general warranty on originality is life, not the seven day any reason return period.

[inimicus]

Thanks larry - i believe warranties vary per seller and customer, private transaction vs. Forum, auction or dealer sale. Here for ex., seven days is the stipulated inspection period or 'warranty' (right, mods?), while some dealers offer a lifetime guarantee. I'm unaware of a 'general warranty' of life; everyone appears to have their own policies... Cheers, dw

let's understand, the general warranty on originality is life, not the seven day any reason return period.

[Frogprince]

I know these are controversial in some quarters. But ron wienand has seen 4-5 in 50 years and tom johnson just sold one and describes them in a book fwiw; so apparently they're rare. Anyhow this surfaced in ny state recently. Comments appreciated....

This thread is not about medals, warranties, or dealers, or refunds, private transactions versus forum transactions, lifetime warranties, inspection periods etc. etc. It is a discussion about the “small knives” which are controversial - and have been for quite some time. With this discussion one of a multiple number of discussions over a fairly long time period. And if some guys just love the small knives, and want to buy and sell, and collect as many as they can that is their prerogative.

But the larger picture also takes into account those who do not love them. With this WAF thread a vehicle for both sides to present their views - which I am doing now with some more pictures and discussion.

From what has been reported the “BDM” (no emblem) version of the small knife for the masses did not have a bag. Instead it was reported as being wrapped in a piece of brown paper, with a string around it as pictured in the example shown below.

Which is not the case with the “Olympics” version which had a paper bag all to itself with no mention on it of the Hitler Youth - even though a standard type of HJ emblem was inset into the handle. (Where was the RZM when you needed them??) With different “stories” attached, running the gamut from “souvenirs for the general public, to special knives for HJ members who were “helpers” at the Berlin Olympics, etc.

With what was interesting to me about this particular knife being that it has one of the worst quality “Olympic” etches/finishing that I remember seeing. But a better quality set of grips, so it seems there was something of a tradeoff. With (judging from the construction details) perhaps three or four different batches of knives now in circulation. FP

[inimicus]

many thanks for the pix and the 'value added,' fred. fair enuf. good weekend all. dw

[Frogprince]

Before we get back to the thread starter type, here is another one of the postwar “Olympic” small knives for the masses with a better quality material used for the grip plates. It’s also one that might have been put together by a new crew of workers who were still in the learning process - because they really need to work on their casting and grip fitting skills.

And for ‘variant’ lovers, also posted is a “Party Day” version of the knife with stag grips. With some of the “Party Day” small knives for the masses also having maker logos/TM’s (most likely as an extra cost option).

When you look at the extra work and materials needed for these versions of the small knives for the masses - it makes the idea of converting a plain knife to a “DJ” knife by comparison IMO look like child’s play. But I would imagine a fairly profitable one for sellers because there is usually a significant price increase attached. Fred

[Frogprince]

After looking more closely at the images already posted, is this a 'variant' Olympic small knife for the masses? One with grips of simulated stag made from wood?? BTW: I also found another example of the black plastic type of grips which seems to have some distortion/shrinkage - so I would think that owner(s) should be careful about expose to high temperatures. Fred



[/QUOTE]

[Frogprince]

Correction - please make that: “.................. so I would think that owner(s) should be careful about exposure to high temperatures.” And because it’s somewhat difficult to see - here is a slightly enhanced image that I hope illustrates what appears to be chipping from a saw cut on the left end of the grip plate. With some small splinters sticking up on the exposed underside. Fred

[Mac 66]

Fred,

These Bogus knifes for the masses are very bad quality construction ,

When did these DJs ect, ect start coming onto the market for sale 50s,60s ?

Why do people honestly believe these to be period made knifes?

Its all about The Money, The Money, The Money ..............


Mac 66.

[Frogprince]

Fred, These Bogus knifes for the masses are very bad quality construction , When did these DJs ect, ect start coming onto the market for sale 50s,60s ? Why do people honestly believe these to be period made knifes? Its all about The Money, The Money, The Money .............. Mac 66.

One of the interesting things that I found when tracking down which (U.S) units were in Solingen and when, was that some GI’s were given a new mission to fight the Japanese and shipped out almost immediately after the surrender. But others had a longer tour of duty in Germany as a part of the occupation force. With time in service, and a multitude of other factors determining how long an individual GI might be in Germany before being sent home. There was also a group who were technically WWII era GI’s, but had not taken part in the fighting and were sent to Germany for the purpose of replacing GI’s who were due or overdue to go home. With unit information lacking, which would have been helpful because I believed then and still do that: “.......buying directly from the veterans I have found over a dozen of these knives. What must be stated is that ALL were in super, unissued condition, so whether or not they were ever issued or sold in Germany to the HJ (I don't believe these would have been limited to the DJ) is another question.”....... “I tend to not worry about the rivet holding the spring in the scabbard. I am more concerned about the shape of the hole in the scabbard for the diamond prongs (its a rectangular punched hole, not a round drilled hole as seen in the fake ones).......” is and was a true statement by someone other than myself who has a long history with TR artifacts.

Believing that in a best case scenario, the first “DJ” knives were postwar modifications/creations to sell “Nazi Souvenirs” to the GI’s in Germany who were in the market for something as a remembrance. With the same also possibly true for the “BDM” types as inexpensive, but generic souvenirs that could be placed in a shop window. Because as I understand it, at that time, German nationals in the business of publicly dealing in Nazi items may have risked confiscation and arrest in an occupied nation that did not regain its sovereignty until 10 years later. And as for the later “here and now conversions” they are so very easy to do (competently or incompetently) that I am continually amazed that some guys just seem unable to see that. So maybe I will do a tutorial showing some of the ways that were used to do the conversions. Or not ........

The “Party Day” types I’ve been told made their first appearance on the West Coast (USA) circa early 1970’s. With secondary production continuing in spurts depending on the demand. With the fall of the Berlin Wall I believe the impetus for the “Olympics” knives, which have been quite profitable for those selling them. So profitable in fact that every few years a new batch of them seems to be uncovered. Which is pretty amazing just by itself, because the quality just seems to get worse and worse with each new “discovery”. Almost as if as the older more experienced workers had gone into retirement - and that their replacements had a really tough time with quality control. Or maybe the dealer or distributor ordering them is trying to increase his profit margin by specifying cheaper materials - less attention to details?? Not that it has made a difference to some of these “collectors”, because the knives just disappear from sight. Although every once in a while one resurfaces for a time only to disappear again with its new owner.

But some guys still seem to like those postwar etched “SS” combat bayonets - so I guess that it’s a matter of judgment and taste. Fred