Deutsches Jungvolk knife - real or fantasy?

[RussellM]

Ron, all I'm asking you to do is provide the evidence to back up your statement, nothing more. You said it, not me.

So now you refer me to catalogues. So, this knife with the diamond is in a catalogue? If so, why not end all the speculation and put it to bed right now? If I'm the one who's got this wrong, I will offer full apologies to everyone! And, no doubt, the catalogue you speak of will make all the current owners of this adorned knife very happy!

"Get the period factory catalogs yourself (You need to look for a Klaas Hunting Knife war time catalog) , if it is that important to you. Its not to me as I have already made up my mind on these long ago, so have at it."

Saying that this isn't important to you doesn't look very good. This isn't a trial Ron, it's just you being asked to back up your statement - it's not too much to ask for is it?

Ron, I'm not talking about the plain knives here - the thread is about the knives adorned with diamonds!

Regards

Russ

[Frogprince]

Here are a couple of excerpts from a GDC discussion in 2007 about these knives:

.................“buying directly from the veterans I have found over a dozen of these knives. What must be stated is that ALL were in super, unissued condition, so whether or not they were ever issued or sold in Germany to the HJ (I don't believe these would have been limited to the DJ) is another question. HOWEVER, I am totally convinced that they were indeed manufactured. When the diamond insignia was added to the small knife is another question, but definitely done in the period, eg. not post war ..............

Next, KLAAS DID manufacture a post war knife of this size, but it did have a plated hilt, not the aluminum we see on the period knife ...............

Wartime standards appear not to be completely followed by the producers ..........

So, from my experience the Knife DID exist and was returned by the veterans. Were some of them made post war because of their rarity, probably. Just like any other TR edged weapons, fakes probably exist. Know your source and examine carefully the one you buy ............

I tend to not worry about the rivet holding the spring in the scabbard. I am more concerned about the shape of the hole in the scabbard for the diamond prongs (its a rectangular punched hole, not a round drilled hole as seen in the fake ones) .............”

FP

[RussellM]

Hi Fred, thanks for coming in on this one again.

The discussion is not about the existence of the plain knife. I believe everyone accepts that it existed during the period for some reason, yet to be discovered.

This whole thing is about Ron's assertion that these knives with the diamond on the scabbard are a well known late war variation.

Now it appears he's tossed his toys and bailed with the "it doesn't bother me" scenario.

Bit of a kick in the guts for his admirers I guess.

Regards

Russ

[Frogprince]

The discussion is not about the existence of the plain knife. I believe everyone accepts that it existed during the period for some reason, yet to be discovered.

Perhaps not under discussion, but the plain knives I think need a little more attention. These ubiquitous "Ladies in Waiting" - the (so called) Bund Deutscher Mädel (BDM) knives were quite popular with those who were advertising and selling them as such to eager collectors. But that sort of died off, and they did not bring in as much money. So many are still out there no doubt awaiting their gender transformation into much more profitable "DJ" small knives. Which is actually fairly easy with a small investment, and a minimal amount of talent. FP

[RussellM]

Fred, I agree with you 100%!

No doubt more and more adorned pieces will pop up as the earlier pitch continues to take a bit of a dive.

The last "rare DJ variant" I saw sold for $895 on the Johnson site.

Also sold on the Johnson site was a standard HJ knife with an "unattributed" Green HJ diamond...what next?

Regards

Russ

[stuart a.]

bottom line is there is no proof, and the people who do apparently have proof , have no wish to share which i find really odd, if i had the proof to back up my argument it would be shown here for all to see.

so either there is no proof and all the stories of proof are to validate a post war dagger that gets the backing of many big dealer, so if it did come out they where rubbish they are afraid their lifetime guarentees are going to be called up, and for people who own them to feel more comfortable about them

or

there is know pics or documents that prove these daggers that people want ot keep to themselves for no reason whatsoever


im going with the first option until this proof shows itself

[inimicus]

hello again russ and hi fred -


another sold on the ruptured duck I dunno for how much, probably in the near-thousand dollar ballpark.

please address GDC's displaying in their comprehensive color gallery an identical small knife with scabb emblem. have all that 'site's members, admin and mods been fooled? not sayin' it's impossible but believing so is frankly pulling a pretty long bow.

ok, so there's apparent agreement both sides that smalls existed pre-45. but non-believers hold that absent period documentation, and for reasons of dealer greed, they must've been 'adorned' sometime post-45. could that mean anytime between may '45 and last week?

and in addn. to any wartime production (pretty clearly minimal vs. full-size, ubiquitous HJ models) are there full-on fakes?

and can you picture real-versus-fake hole shapes please? I dont want to remove the emblem.

also, since it's crucial that ron and believers produce period proof, isn't it equally important that naysayers document cases of fakes-n-forgeries? say, telephoto lens images of fakers at work producing the phonies, aging new knives or adding hj emblems to scabbards.

fair is fair.

thanks again!

dw

Fred, I agree with you 100%!

No doubt more and more adorned pieces will pop up as the earlier pitch continues to take a bit of a dive.

The last "rare DJ variant" I saw sold for $895 on the Johnson site.

Also sold on the Johnson site was a standard HJ knife with an "unattributed" Green HJ diamond...what next?

Regards

Russ

[stuart a.]

its not for people to prove they are fake its for people to prove they are genuine afterall they are the ones trying to make money on them.

no period evidence will exist of a fake because of the fact its just that not genuine, but there should be lots of period proof of a genuine item. how many pics have you seen showing a hj wearing or using a hj dagger hundreds, how many publications have people seen showing the correct hj dagger loads, but how many pics or docs have you seen showing this dagger NONE, and until that changes people will always question these items as they should

[inimicus]

cheers, stuart; fair enuf. tho to repeat what tom johnson has said, there are many widely accepted items for which zero period documentation exists. at day's end it's down to collectors to decide yea or nay.

[Frogprince]

"hello again russ and hi fred .................... and can you picture real-versus-fake hole shapes please? I dont want to remove the emblem. ................. also, since it's crucial that ron and believers produce period proof, isn't it equally important that naysayers document cases of fakes-n-forgeries? say, telephoto lens images of fakers at work producing the phonies, aging new knives or adding hj emblems to scabbards. ..............................

David, You do know that what I was quoting as an excerpt from the 2007 GDC discussion was not something that I said myself. Right ........... ???

And now that you have opened the door: What did you have in mind for the video? Something like a 'youtube' presentation on how to make one of the "BDM" knives into a small "DJ" knife? Like # 1: First drill out the rivet # 2: ........ (etc.) BTW: A while back on one of the forums I posted some images of a knife where either the gender transformation into a "DJ" small knife went south. Or (alternately) why it’s not a good idea to pin an emblem onto a scabbard that is actually going to be used. Because the pins broke off with no discernible evidence on either the emblem or the scabbard of what caused them to break. So they were going to give these to 10 year olds?? Fred

[inimicus]

hi fred - no sorry I didnt know that; my apologies....

no I didn't mean video, and don't wanna make things easier for the fakerati in this setting. I shd. not have asked... and I DID see the 'transformation' thread - most interesting! just wondering about how the curious collector mt. discern a period transformation from a postwar one. again, not prudent here for obvious reasons.

guess I'm beating a dead horse. I'll be putting this on the 'Stand soon, and devil take the hindmost!.... thanks again for assisting here. dw

[Frogprince]

David,

No apology needed. It took me a while, but I finally figured out that that it might have been a case where I was not clear as to the source of the statements. And in discussions there is going to be a back and forth as the different points are presented.

Best Regards, Fred

[RussellM]

its not for people to prove they are fake its for people to prove they are genuine afterall they are the ones trying to make money on them.

Well said Stuart, and right on the money if you'll excuse the pun...

This is why Ron chooses to ignore the questions - because they cannot be answered with any proof at all.

And because "dealers" choose to describe these knives as "rare", with a heavy price tag, it is they who have to provide the evidence that what they are professing, is indeed correct, because they can prove it if they need to. Well, they do need to, but the silence is deafening, and we all know why. You have to ask yourself, why won't Ron offer the proof and shut that guy up?

Sadly, because of Ron's 50 years of motel buys etc, a nod from him is all the blind collector needs, or in this case, the empty statement "well known late war variation".

Why? Because that saves the blind collector the research time. That saves the blind collector the time to go looking at period catalogues and period publications and period regulations which clearly state that the HJ knife we know and love was for the HJ and the DJ. It's all there, in black and white, should the blind collector take 5 minutes to read it. But they'd rather just pay $895 and say "Ron says it's a well known late war variation".

I'm beginning to think Ron doesn't know who the HJ knife was actually made for, as he describes my description as presumptive. For someone who's been in it for 50 years, you'd think he'd know who the flippin' thing was made for in the first place, so that's concerning for a start.

I'm sure one of my true collector colleagues could post a photo of a catalogue, or a regulation which states my description of who the knife was made for, is correct - it is an un-deniable fact, but I won't ask them to. Take 5 minutes and look it up yourselves - it's there, don't worry. Then, stack the fact up against a nod and then make up your own mind. Consider the ludicrous price you're paying for these things from dealers, and then consider the famous quote from good old Johnny Rotten:

"Ah-ha-ha. Ever get the feeling you've been cheated? Good night".

Regards

Russ

[Garry M.]

While we wait for Ron's proof may I offer the reader another thread along the lines of this one:

http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f31...-history-6650/

[inimicus]

so there are believers and disbelievers. whatever, it's an interesting thing. I'm e-stading it for $450 along with this thread. I thank all for taking the time to pitch in regardless of their POV. dw