Deutsches Jungvolk knife - real or fantasy?

[Frogprince]

Re: The leftover parts etc. that were in Solingen at the end of the war and taken home by GI's:

I do not know the hilt base metal...
Many were still in stock after the war as pictured in the klass catalog..
You must remember there was rooms full of completed stock and parts after the war.............

There's no argument with that having seen some of the photos from the immediate postwar period. But it's selective, because the misfortunes of war were not equally distributed among the different businesses in Solingen. For myself it was the treasure trove of souvenirs that were just unassembled parts that I found really fascinating because it opened a window into how they were made. The dagger handle and pommel here looking like they were compromised by poor storage. And the die cast handle (which is not aluminum) also showing some signs of poor storage just a sample of what was brought back.





But when I look at this BDM/DJ "Olympic" aluminum hilted small knife it screams fake, being just another item made for the "collector market". That some guys must like because they keep buying them based on whatever the seller tells them. But for myself no amount of rationalizing, irrespective of the source, is going to convince me that it's a legitimate TR period artifact. FP

[Garry M.]

Even if the 1944 Hörster sales flyer is authentic and not a cynical post-war attempt by someone to legitimise these little knives, the fact remains that the people who are selling and have sold these knives in the past have no proof that the items are as described. All they have are claims and opinions. Wittmann is still selling them. He clearly doesn't care.

We know that these little knives existed during the TR. In the case of Klaas (the only known producer) we know that this company did not see it as having anything to do with the HJ or DJ at that time. This is just one example of hard evidence. Wittmann's "the knives were totally interchangeable with the organisations" is most certainly not. It is a claim, an opinion but it is one that comes with a hefty price-tag.

What I hope that we can eventually do is to exclude, through evidence, a large number of these knives from the TR period. In my mind there is absolutely no question that the addition of a diamond to the scabbards of these small knives is a scam. Who did it I don't know but whether it was german workers desperate for money in the immediate post-war period or scammers in the 1960s and onwards, no-one should be paying good money for a fantasy.

The prices for these little knives are astronomical when you think about how little the sellers know about them and how so very shaky are the foundations. The evidence from dealers that aims to justify the cost consists of claims that sway with the wind depending on how collectors think about the knives at the time. Bob Iqbal said in this very thread that he will not sell the DJ knife until collector consensus changes. Well, in my opinion this is passive and shows ambivalence to history and to the collector. The better approach would be for a seller/dealer not to sell the knife until he knows what it is. However, I suppose that there is always going to be a conflict of interests where businessmen collectors meet their civilian counterparts.

We have watched Wittmann, Weinand, Johnson and others adapt their opinions on these knives over the years. What happened to the vibrant certainty? This knife has gone from being the "official DJ knife" to an item whose alleged function has been so watered-down and generalised that even the dealers must feel slightly bad about asking so much for it.

These knives should NOT be fetching prices equivalent to a standard, authentic HJ knife. If Mr Iqbal is looking for a consensus perhaps he should look to his fellow dealers and not to the collector. A great many of us already know what we think.

[Serge M.]

I can't recall where I snagged the photos from, but this sack was found during a house cleaning in Germany.

Serge

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[Garry M.]

I can't recall where I snagged the photos from, but this sack was found during a house cleaning in Germany.

Serge

.

This is a bag for the standard HJ/DJ knife. The word "vorschriftsmäßig" is the clue as it shows that there was a regulation followed by manufacturers. There is no Vorschrift for the little DJ knife.

Wittmann put one of these bags from a different maker next to a "DJ" knife on his sales page as mentioned previously in this thread and was rightly called out. What's your point?

[Frogprince]

................ We know that these little knives existed during the TR. In the case of Klaas (the only known producer) we know that this company did not see it as having anything to do with the HJ or DJ at that time. This is just one example of hard evidence. Wittmann's "the knives were totally interchangeable with the organisations" is most certainly not. It is a claim, an opinion but it is one that comes with a hefty price-tag.....................

The small knives from Klaas are period as exemplified by catalog and the Brannik knives - but there is a big difference in that they have iron/steel hilts that are magnetic and rust. So they are not the same as the aluminum small knives that are often of indifferent to poor quality. The Brannik organization at one time having I believe about 60,000 members I don’t know how many were ordered or delivered. But I can say this: The 1941 export contract for the service bayonets from Solingen to Portugal have both the 1941 and 1942 types of Waffenamts. My point being that that they were made after the order was finalized and they had to be manufactured to their specifications. So I don’t think that any halfway sensible factory manager/owner had XXXXX thousand multi-component knives with almost certainly subcontracted components that had to be paid for just sitting around and waiting to be delivered - in the hope that maybe an order was going to be placed that was to be manufactured to a specific criteria. With the Portuguese contract also showing that they were delivered in batches, not overnight, and took some time to complete. The Brannik organization itself being created at the very end of 1940, so the deliveries would have to started in 1941 and possibly extended into 1942. FP

[Garry M.]

Yes FP, I'm aware of the metallic differences. This has been covered ad finitum in this thread and other arguably more important threads and web pages elsewhere. Let us wait for the evidence from the DJ knife supporters before we on our side begin to argue with one another.

This is a forum thread that will not be referenced by sellers. Has Bob Iqbal placed that promised warning on his website? Is Wittmann listening? Does Serge really think that his paper bag has any bearing on the discussion? Have Wittmann, Weinand, Johnson, Shea and the other authors/sellers ever pushed some verifiable proof in Richtung collector? Nope. This whole thing is pointless. We can collect evidence against but whether the pushers/defenders of these knives listen is, of course, a totally different matter. I would prefer to pursue this in a different, sponsor-free venue so that is what I'll do.

[Serge M.]

Some will say: 'there's your proof right on the bag'. Other will say: it doesn't prove that the DJ knives came with the HJ diamond on the scabbard in that bag.
I personally have no position on the DJ knives. Except I have seen them around -forever. Doesn't mean much, I know. But I have not had much interest in them, so my opinion on these knives is not 'seasoned', so I don't offer it. I certainly have not handled as many as the Tom's or Bob or Bill, and probably some others here.

Best of Hunt,
Serge

[Frogprince]

Yes FP, I'm aware of the metallic differences. This has been covered ad finitum in this thread and other arguably more important threads and web pages elsewhere. Let us wait for the evidence from the DJ knife supporters before we on our side begin to argue with one another.

This is a forum thread that will not be referenced by sellers. Has Bob Iqbal placed that promised warning on his website? Is Wittmann listening? Does Serge really think that his paper bag has any bearing on the discussion? Have Wittmann, Weinand, Johnson, Shea and the other authors/sellers ever pushed some verifiable proof in Richtung collector? Nope. This whole thing is pointless. We can collect evidence against but whether the pushers/defenders of these knives listen is, of course, a totally different matter. I would prefer to pursue this in a different, sponsor-free venue so that is what I'll do.

Garry, The real focus of my comment was not metallic differences it was an earlier comment:

“Many were still in stock after the war as pictured in the klass catalog..
You must remember there was rooms full of completed stock and parts after the war.
Period made parts and completed pieces some (MAYBE) modified to sell easier.”

My intent (to a much larger audience) being that if the Klaas-Brannik knives were being made sometime in the 1941/42 time period. And during wartime there were lots of unused parts still leftover from that contract and somebody or something was defying the RZM, the NSDAP, and anybody else that mattered to use these theoretical parts for a unique "BDM/DJ" knife. Shouldn’t the knives have been made with the iron/steel hilts, and Klaas stamped blades instead of unmarked blades and aluminum? In other words they have none of the readily identifiable features of a period Klaas knife, instead being later by somebody copying the basic Klaas design with no proof that they are period. Fred

[Garry M.]

Hi FP,

We are in total agreement about these knives I think . You were involved in the debate about them long before I and I have the utmost respect for your thorough presentation and analysis. I was sent this link today which I see as a long-overdue and positive development:

https://www.lakesidetrader.com/item.php?ID=18293

Paul at Lakeside Trader has decided to slash the price for this knife and says:

"Once widely accepted now collectors have decided these are all post-war, so I’ll price it at half of what others do and you will have to make up your own mind about it."

This assessment is not fully correct because as you say FP, iron/steel Klaas knives can demonstrably be placed into the TR period. However, Paul is being fair and that's great.

My "thing" with these knives has always been the claims made for many many years by authors and dealers about them that have never been backed up by anything in the way of verifiable evidence and for me personally, the most useful part of this discussion has been finding out (and seeing) that Klaas did indeed make a version of these small knives. I wasn't aware of that and it was great to see the proof.

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Some will say: 'there's your proof right on the bag'. Other will say: it doesn't prove that the DJ knives came with the HJ diamond on the scabbard in that bag.
I personally have no position on the DJ knives. Except I have seen them around -forever. Doesn't mean much, I know. But I have not had much interest in them, so my opinion on these knives is not 'seasoned', so I don't offer it. I certainly have not handled as many as the Tom's or Bob or Bill, and probably some others here.

No, anyone who has seen a bag for the standard HJ/DJ knife will say "oh look, there's a bag for the standard knife". There is nothing on that bag that would lead to any other conclusion unless one wanted or needed it to.

The regulation HJ/DJ knife was introduced officially in 1933 and this can be proven beyond any doubt. That there were knives manufactured before that by some companies for the Hitler Youth is also beyond doubt. However, no evidence whatsoever exists from the period that these small knives were meant for the Hitler Youth let alone that they were "regulation". I don't think that you will find anyone willing to go along wholeheartedly with the idea that the bag you show contained a "DJ" or "BDM knife" when it left the factory. As I say, this was discussed earlier in the thread.

Your last sentence can be interpreted as saying that because an item exists and has been handled by certain people it must be real or at the very least that collectors would do well to give the knives the benefit of the doubt based on the experience of the examiner. I don't believe that this is helpful because although we owe a great debt to the pioneers in this hobby, we know that the little Klaas knife in iron/steel is a TR civilian-use product. Someone who has handled a lot of knives may well be able to determine that a given knife is from the period but he will NOT be able to make a definite connection between the knife and the Hitler Youth simply by looking at it. This, however, is what happened. Quite who first started calling these knives "DJ" and "BDM" I do not know but what I do know is that no proof has ever been shown despite some having claimed in the past to have it (Wittmann, Shea and LTC Johnson).

No, the bag means nothing in the context of the current discussion.

[Mac 66]

Paul sells the small knife as DJ Knife, should it be renamed Small Utility knife ? Or small hunting knife ?

Yes or No

[Garry M.]

Paul sells the small knife as DJ Knife, should it be renamed Small Utility knife ? Or small hunting knife ?

Yes or No

When I say "fair" I mean that he is being fairly honest about the state of play. He blows it of course by deferring to Wittmann but yes, you're right. He is effectively still selling it as DJ instead of "1930s civilian camping/utility knife by unknown maker". As the blade is unmarked and the handle is of aluminium I think a fairer price would be 50 bucks tops but hey, not my knife.

There is still some way to go yet but this price-slashing is a start.

[Garry M.]

....He is effectively still selling it as DJ instead of "1930s civilian camping/utility knife by unknown maker"....

should read: "civilian camping/utility knife by unknown maker"

[Mac 66]

[QUOTE=Garry M.;7825525]should read: "civilian camping/utility knife by unknown maker"[


Sounds like the correct description, DJ

[BobI]

My God!
This is how the arguments go on this thread.

Mac-You tend to "flip-flop", you seem to have no real experience in the hobby and one day you argue. The solid red diamonds are totally fake!!! One member ont he WAF acquires one from a vet and now, you argue they are real, make up your mind!

Jo Rivet- Actually, for the most part I do have a lot of respect for Joe. The problem is he tends to be a bit abrasive. However, looking at my past my writing style from my medical background made me sound this way. So, for this reason I am second guessing Jo.

Rohm and Gary- Are you both the same people? There are many lies in your arguments which is why many people do not respond anymore. For example, I did not answer your questions because you should read all of the relevant threads where I have responded on these knives. I did state several times the same as Paul Hogle, however, I do not sell them and if I do I volunteer both sides of the argument so they can make their own decision. That way I do not need to worry about returns. Rohm reviving this thread enabled me to sell one as soon as I see a friend of mine. The other two I have I can sell to another friend who is fully aware of their history. To be safe I will remind him so I can keep my return rate well under 1%.

Frogprince- You have mostly good information but sometimes you are way off, I don't know where.

Hmmm, Johnson and TTW seem to have spread these around the country and world so unsuspecting collectors and dealers can vet purchase these. That is from hundreds or more different veterans in different locations going back to the 50s or 60s. That really makes sense!

I just had to make a summary of what has transpired.
Bob

[Mac 66]

Bob,

Flip flop about what, sorry i do not know you are meaning or do you want an arguement ?, is this attack everybody day for you, chill the feck out man 💀