Deutsches Jungvolk knife - real or fantasy?

[Frogprince]

We are getting closer, but still not there I think. In one of the discussions with I think Ron Weinand (an immediate recollection I haven’t looked at what I have archived) I believe I said that if some old stock plain knives had been found, and/or sold to GI’s as souvenirs I could live with that. (This whole “BDM” thing was a postwar fantasy idea to sell ordinary camping knives as “TR” relics.)

I could even live with the idea that some knives were made up into “Nazi Relics” for GI’s (because we do NOT want to forget what an ‘old timer’ who has had a lot of first hand experience with brand new, or near new knives has said about them - square holes and all). And while Solingen took a major “hit” during the war, it was not wiped off the surface of the earth like some places I’ve either lived in or visited in Germany. (Does anybody remember things like the “Field Day” items made for GI’s?)

With the reason behind my posting of one of the “Olympic” aluminum small knives being to show that the making of fakes has continued even into more recent times. Much less some of the other fakes that have been made for the “collector market” for decades. Fred

[Mac 66]

Guys,

Why would the germans waste precious aluminium making these small knifes when they needed all they could get to build there planes, bombers & equipment?

Remember they changed from heavy Steel hilts to Zinc around 1938 for hj knifes, SA dagger crossguards ect, ect, so why are these small knifes hilts not made from zinc?, were they made mid 30s when there was more aluminium to be had ? i dont see how they would have needed these knifes as there was more than enough hj knifes around to use, also why were the blades not maker marked or RZM Stamped?, so many questions with no solid answers from anybody so can any the believers come up with Solid Proof these were wartime constructed knifes?, i,m fed up hearing the vet purchased stories

Regards Mac 66.

[BobI]

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Again, I know you have the best intentions. I think the rest of us have reached agreement. Arguments like we had on the 1st model railway dagger/black handle army when you argued against traits that are known 110% for sure to be original on, then you disappeared from the discussion are not helpful. No reason to argue, just to argue.
All that can be said that I think all will agree on. If one of these knives has a button added, if added by an "expert faker", no-one will ever know when the button was added. These are not "issue" pieces, hard to go any further then we already have.
All I can say is, if you feel comfortable with these buy one from someone you trust!
Best Wishes,
Bob

[Frogprince]

Fred, .............. Arguments like we had on the 1st model railway dagger/black handle army when you argued against traits that are known 110% for sure to be original on, then you disappeared from the discussion are not helpful. No reason to argue, just to argue ...............

Bob, I did voice my doubts, but I don’t think that I disappeared from the discussion. What I did was to defer to what you said about having something of a special interest, and being a longtime student of the daggers. Accepting what you said about the poor workmanship. (Although to be honest, that lower grip band IMO still looked like it had been fooled around with some, and might have been a replacement as the condition did not seem to match up to the rest.) But it’s not an item where I have spent a lot of time studying them, and in the condition it was, not being a dealer would not have had an interest in its investment potential. In any event - here is the link so that everyone can judge for themselves what was said:

http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthrea...hlight=railway

You also said something in that discussion that I took to heart, as it mirrored my own views on the black handled daggers in general:

“Let make sure we agree to be safe, these "anomalies" are "normal" to see on a so called 1st model railway. I think the reality of the case is there is no such thing as a 1st model railway. ALL of the 1st model railways had white paint on the grip at one time. The general consensus is to save money this material was available to make black grips. All of these grips were painted white at one time. Through the decades collectors and dealers have removed the white paint. Some of the grips have a shinny finish and others are more mat. The reason is depending on how well the grip was polished. The original grips were not well formed and especially by the pommel have a poor fit. I had a fetish and studied these very well at one point and have consulted the most respected names in the hobby on this dagger.
Many people will disagree about the existence of a 1st model railway which I understand, all of the points I mentioned are still true. That is whether it is a army variant or 1st model railway. Best Wishes, Bob”

So I was a little surprised to see this item that is currently for sale:

“If you ever wanted a real RR dagger here it is. This is another one from my collection, time to start selling. This is the textbook Klas 1st model railway dagger, with every feature that you expect to find on this unique Klas dagger. To start with, the handle is black not a paint striped army handle,  no paint inside the grip. The grip is tapered on the top and bottom as it should be. The blade has the small Kals factory etched maker mark as it should be. The scabbard has the star stamp on both ends of the hanger bands as it should be. This is just the way you want your Klas first model Railway dagger to be, there is nothing missing. The fittings still retain a large portion of the original lacquer finish. The blade is bright and shows full cross graining with some dark spots. This is the real thing and a hard one to find, I have only had 2 or 3 that I consider completely correct. Condition very good + .............

I’m not posting this to re-argue the black handle daggers. But it was you who were the one who brought them up as a part of the "DJ" discussion - and as you can see I have not disappeared. Fred

[Frogprince]

Fred, Again, I know you have the best intentions. I think the rest of us have reached agreement .................
All that can be said that I think all will agree on. If one of these knives has a button added, if added by an "expert faker", no-one will ever know when the button was added. These are not "issue" pieces, hard to go any further then we already have. All I can say is, if you feel comfortable with these buy one from someone you trust!
Best Wishes, Bob

Bob, I personally am “still not on board” when it comes to these knives because I don’t like the “round hole” aspect. Because anybody can go out and buy a drill. And the HJ pins are still available whether they are period, or later “knock offs”. With the decision to purchase a second drill bit, a replacement rivet, and some paint optional.

Contrast that with: “I tend to not worry about the rivet holding the spring in the scabbard. I am more concerned about the shape of the hole in the scabbard for the diamond prongs (its a rectangular punched hole, not a round drilled hole as seen in the fake ones) .............” .

Because a punched hole suggests at least some degree of professional type equipment. Versus some guy working in his garage or basement with no real investment for the conversion. Fred

[BobI]

Fred,
The Black handle dagger on my site belongs to Jim, his experience not mine. I should ask him where he bought it. Jim is one of the founders of our hobby, many of the best items out there today were his bought from vets and greats in the hobby like Chuck Scaglione.
Bob

[RussellM]

Thanks Fred, that's the pic I was talking about.

Bob, the rest of us certainly haven't reached any agreement. Quite the contrary in fact.

Bob, gents, please go back to the start of the thread for a quick refresher.

Page 1.

Post 10.

Ron said:

"Well known late war variation".

This implies deliberate manufacture, somewhere, by someone, requiring outlets to sell them, catalogues to promote them, regulations for their design etc, etc.

Ron, again, I invite you to come on here and explain how you know this to be a fact.

You do have some support here from some quarters, but even that is now waning.

Please, come on here and present the evidence to your fellow collectors and put this to bed.

Regards

Russ

[Garry M.]

"I think" we both now agree that these were not issue pieces but were probably private purchase. The ones that meet the criteria of construction/modification that Ron and I have outlined are most likely going to be of period construction. I am sure some crafty people have made some over the years but with experience and a keep eye these can probably be identified.
Glad "I think" we have come to agreement! I personally feel 900 is a bit much for one of these but then again, we saw one sell on this thread for considerably less.
Best Wishes,
Bob

Hi Bob,

We're not quite in full agreement. I'm glad that we are moving away from the premise that these knives are 'BDM' and 'DJ' but I have to say that I don't believe for a second that any manufacturer during the period would have got away with slapping a Hitler Youth diamond onto the scabbard and then selling the knives as 'general purpose' civilian knives. The insignia was protected by law from misuse/misappropriation (Gesetz gegen heimtückische Angriffe auf Staat und Partei und zum Schutz der Parteiuniformen)so it can't be a civilian knife unless it was produced before December 1934 (the law was introduced in 1933 but the 1934 revision includes a section which requires RZM authorisation for the use of party symbols) and as there is no evidence for that and no evidence that the knife was issued to the DJ what are we left with? I submit that we are left at worst with a fantasy or at best with a souvenir for GIs. In any case post-war.

The version of the knife with no diamond and no markings could indeed be a period civilian knife but one which was later turned into the 1935 RPT, 'DJ' and Olympic knives. By 'later' I mean after 8.5.1945.

[BobI]

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At this point I think all we can do is agree to disagree. In the form you want proof, I do not have the research ability to do so if it exists.
I sincerely believe most of them to be of war time manufacture. I am sure they were modified at many levels so there is not 100% consistency in the methods. So, making comparisons between knives and the crude or crisp modification will not help.
Best Wishes,
Bob
PS-On the Olympic knife I have absolutely no knowledge so I have nothing to add.

[Frogprince]

Hello Everyone! At this point I think all we can do is agree to disagree. In the form you want proof, I do not have the research ability to do so if it exists. I sincerely believe most of them to be of war time manufacture. I am sure they were modified at many levels so there is not 100% consistency in the methods. So, making comparisons between knives and the crude or crisp modification will not help. Best Wishes, Bob PS-On the Olympic knife I have absolutely no knowledge so I have nothing to add.

Bob,
I do get the sense that you feel that you don’t have more to contribute. And that in your view with a lot of little “makers” creating these, it does no good to compare the knives. Also that you don’t have sufficient knowledge/expertise to judge the “Olympic” knives, and if I’m wrong please correct me, that you have no position on the “BDM” knives for girls/young women.

And if that is an accurate restatement of your position - it is what it is. But I’m afraid that I did come across something in the photos you posted that has me wondering. Because with the knife missing the emblem it looks to me like the left hand grip plate has changed shape or shrunk. Which seems to be evident in all of the images that were posted, but the most discernible in the one I’m posting. Or is it just some kind of a really bizarre across the board optical illusion???

PS: With this same knife with the piece of metal sticking out, the pins were designed to be folded where the cross section was the least (narrowest). But the metal piece shown looks like it is wider and at a right angle to the pin’s normal orientation. It also shows no signs of being forced to bend at a right angle to its normal orientation. So are you sure that it’s part of a pin?
Best regards, Fred

[Mac 66]

Guys,

Why would the germans waste precious aluminium making these small knifes when they needed all they could get to build there planes, bombers & equipment?

Remember they changed from heavy Steel hilts to Zinc around 1938 for hj knifes, SA dagger crossguards ect, ect, so why are these small knifes hilts not made from zinc?, were they made mid 30s when there was more aluminium to be had ? i dont see how they would have needed these knifes as there was more than enough hj knifes around to use, also why were the blades not maker marked or RZM Stamped?, so many questions with no solid answers from anybody so can any the believers come up with Solid Proof these were wartime constructed knifes?, i,m fed up hearing the vet purchased stories

Regards Mac 66.

Anybody any Answers ?

BTW, This Thread Should Definetly be pinned imo.

[Frogprince]

Anybody any Answers ? BTW, This Thread Should Definetly be pinned imo.

It was a very busy weekend with not much time to look at the various photos of the different knives. And things have not quite settled down as yet - but I can offer this brief observation. It was not just aluminum that was an issue. Relatively early in the war Reichsführer-SS und Chef der Deutschen Polizei Heinrich Himmler stated that his beloved SS Degens were no longer available (for distribution) because of steel allocation quotas. FP

[Mac 66]

It was a very busy weekend with not much time to look at the various photos of the different knives. And things have not quite settled down as yet - but I can offer this brief observation. It was not just aluminum that was an issue. Relatively early in the war Reichsführer-SS und Chef der Deutschen Polizei Heinrich Himmler stated that his beloved SS Degens were no longer available (for distribution) because of steel allocation quotas. FP

Hi Fred,

Thanks for your input,

i have a photo of some DJ members collecting scrap metal ect for the war effort, notice them wearing any DJ knifes

[Mac 66]

A few more pix but No DJ knifes to be seen.

[Mac 66]

a few more, no knifes