Early SS chained dagger

[JR.]

The Type III chain assembly is an early component. This is the 1st one that I've seen with an anodized scabbard. The others with rather rough painted black lacquer. When this chain assembly was fitted to the Type III chain, it fit properly, that is why is wasn't painted. The inconsistency in dimensions of either the scabbard shells or the center bands of the chains, was the reason for painting. This one fit properly.......... there was no reason to paint it. The dagger is of all early construction to even include the grip emblems.

With so many varieties of the M36 chain dagger, a collector has to do an in-depth study in order to determine the time frame that any certain piece was constructed. The initial all nickel M36 daggers were all but gone by the fall of 1937.

[JR.]

This is a TYPE II M36 CHAIN. It has nickel fittings on the dagger, early emblems, nickel fittings on the scabbard, nickel chain, and ANODIZED SCABBARD. It is a very early dagger that is all nickel and does NOT HAVE A PAINTED SCABBARD. Not all early SS Chain Daggers will have a painted scabbard. Some were anodized. You can not characterize an early SS M36 Chain just because of the finish that it has on the scabbard shell.

[JR.]

Here is a mid period SS Type II Chain with a beautiful center band fit to an anodized scabbard.

[JR.]

You can't get hung up on Painted means absolutely early.....................And Anodized means absolutely late. Most of the time yes but we see early SS Chains with ANODIZED SCABBARDS......... and we see some mid period SS Chains with PAINTED SCABBARDS.

[DR DOLCH]

I thought you knew that it is common knowledge to most of the dagger gurus that the early daggers were nickel with painted scabbards.I am not hung up on that,I am hung up on the fact that is not the paint that makes them early or late it is the quality,the fit the tolerance,the materials,and the detail that makes them early or late. The majority of anodized scabbards have poor fitting center ramps and they were not the earlist made daggers.Parts are not made to fit with paint it just does not get thick enough and if it was used for that it would chip and run and flake and you could measure it with a micrometer where it did chip.This reminds me of the time you wanted documents on mottos being sometimes period painted.Then after I gave you your documents you proceded to show me and others all the different painted mottos you have had.Are you just argumentive?

[JR.]

Are type 3 chained daggers nickel or plated steel? If it is early I would think solid nickel with a painted scabbard thru out.

Read your statement................. It's obvious that you are confused on whether the dagger that started this thread is an early piece or a late one. My posts were to show that early SS chains came with both painted and anodized scabbards. And I've about given up on trying to help some individuals.

[DR DOLCH]

What you do and say JR is what is called double talk.We left the dagger that started the tread along time ago.You have stated that the earliest daggers were anodized like the EM daggers and paint was used to make them fitAfter the daggers producers mastered the tolerances the anodized scabbards had tight fits and your wrong.The anodized scabbards in general had poor fitting center bands. There are exceptions to every rule. If we did not use some kind of standards we could spend all day on everything that is brought up that it is not always the case. Thats not always the case because sometimes there are standards,but that not always the case because sometimes......................................

[Frogprince]

Not labeled as such, or pictured as a distinct type in TW’s book. The nickel silver chain set having a skull with a nasal septum was discussed at length on another forum as a "Type X" as far back as 2003. In his book TW also (correctly) makes the statement that the so-called “Type II” is not an indicator of vintage, but instead is just a label. Being produced in both nickel silver and more thinly plated steel than the heavier plated so-called “Type I”.

Which IMO is the real crux of the matter as it was a shortage of first copper (nickel silver is roughly 2/3 copper). And then nickel (for plating) as better indicators of when a dagger was manufactured. With the so-called later “Type II” daggers also having zinc crossguards and the brüniert (time sensitive the Germans used multiple types) finished scabbards with thinner nickel plating. PS: Protective lacquer itself is a painted finish that adds thickness. FP

[DR DOLCH]

So when the dagger makers used paint to make the scabbards thicker for the center fitting.Did they use many coats of paint or did they keep spraying it until it was thick enough.Did they have to let it dry before putting on the next coat.How long did it take to make a scabbard? About a week? Lets see a few chained SS daggers that have chips in the paint and lets measure from the top of the paint to the steel scabbard body and see how thick it is,or even a picture would be nice. Why does paint not crack if it is so thick?.Why do body shops use fillers instead of paint to fill depressions? Paint is not used to make parts fit the only thing paint adds is weight and only when a bunch of it is used,like on a plane.

[777]

With the so-called later “Type II” daggers also having zinc crossguards and the brüniert (time sensitive the Germans used multiple types) finished scabbards with thinner nickel plating.

Thank you, Frogprince, for using the right terms. Maybe I'm a weirdo, but it's hard for me to call "anodized" something that is not made of aluminium (nothing personal, guys ).
Brünierung (you can have it both brown and black) is not exactly the same thing as blueing, but term "blueing" is much more acceptable than "anodizing", besides "black browning" sounds odd.
Talking about the center fitting: maybe I missed something in the discussion, but nobody did mention an extra screw that is found on the "anodized" scabbards. Small and simple thing, but it was the way the producers fixed the problem. I can't see the second screw in the discussed dagger. I've got also a question about the material the center fitting is made of. It looks like a brass shows up where the plating is worn out (the same goes for connecting rings). Is it just a picture? Interesting and bit atypical dagger anyway.

[DR DOLCH]

That is not always the case because sometimes the makers only used one screw to hold the center ramp on anodized scabbards.

[777]

That is not always the case because sometimes the makers only used one screw to hold the center ramp on anodized scabbards.

That is possible too. Different early shells came in slightly different sizes (depending on maker), so if the center fitting was sitting tight there was no need to use the 2nd screw. Nevertheless this type of scabbard having "1 screw" center fitting is very rare.