Announcement

**Seiler** · 09-10-2012, 08:18 AM

A wearisome task,for years I look.
I have M7/29 serail number 58528 with Standarte No.1/V
Ross has done a trace but no luck.I have found several
Nos above and below ALL are to Drs and are
Standartenfuhrers.
One above is Hans Schlosser,one below is
Johannes Senfftleben.I gave up and await Ross to
unearth the Real Owner

It is a nice one though.
Seiler

**Frogprince** · 09-10-2012, 10:54 AM

There is no argument that Himmler was known as a control freak which is well documented. Or that the motto with exclamation point daggers are a scarce and desirable variant. But I think that at the end of the day the preponderance of the known evidence tends to indicate that it’s most likely just a manufacturing variation. With one other piece of evidence being the M 1936 daggers for officers (and certain other ranks who met the criteria for purchasing the M 1936) that lack the exclamation point. With the M 1936 a visible/public symbol of rank or status, whereas who knew what was on the blade without pulling it out and looking at it? Which also applied to those who maintained the depots prior to the sales/award unless they were tracking the few makers, or the packaging was marked for officer's only. FP

**JR.** · 09-10-2012, 07:32 PM

The Himmler Honor Dagger and Rohm daggers were special too, and who would know what was on the blades of those unless they were pulled out of the scabbards? None the less they were honor daggers bestowed upon certain recipients.

I hardly believe that if a company that manufactured SS degens wanted to etch their blades with the SS motto like that of the daggers, that they could of done so and considered it just a manufactures variation. The same is true why very few SS edged weapons were ever personalized. Just something that wasn't done, because Himmler didn't tolerate this type of thing.

**The Red Baron** · 09-10-2012, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by JR. View Post

The Himmler Honor Dagger and Rohm daggers were special too, and who would know what was on the blades of those unless they were pulled out of the scabbards? None the less they were honor daggers bestowed upon certain recipients.

I hardly believe that if a company that manufactured SS degens wanted to etch their blades with the SS motto like that of the daggers, that they could of done so and considered it just a manufactures variation. The same is true why very few SS edged weapons were ever personalized. Just something that wasn't done, because Himmler didn't tolerate this type of thing.

I tend to support this theory.

**Frogprince** · 09-11-2012, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by JR. View Post

The Himmler Honor Dagger and Rohm daggers were special too, and who would know what was on the blades of those unless they were pulled out of the scabbards? None the less they were honor daggers bestowed upon certain recipients.

I hardly believe that if a company that manufactured SS degens wanted to etch their blades with the SS motto like that of the daggers, that they could of done so and considered it just a manufactures variation. The same is true why very few SS edged weapons were ever personalized. Just something that wasn't done, because Himmler didn't tolerate this type of thing.

If I understand the theory correctly the daggers were specifically ordered from the few who made them to be bestowed as a form of special recognition, and Himmler would not permit variations in manufacturing. With the point well taken that you would not know a same period Himmler or Röhm dagger from one of its ordinary cousins without taking it from the scabbard. (Of course that is also true for a very large number of TR era blades that were made both with or without etchings including special etchings.) With the standard Röhm and Himmler daggers not having an exclamation point. And Tom Wittmann also being one of those who made the observation that it was the enlisted man’s belt buckle that had the exclamation point, but the officer’s model did not have one. So just how are the pieces of this puzzle supposed to fit together? FP

**Br. James** · 09-11-2012, 10:01 AM

Having just recently 'come to a better mind' on the subject of SS belt buckles with/without exclamation points -- with thanks to JR's patient enlightenment -- I would commend anyone who would like to quickly view a variety of SS officer's and EM's belt buckles from a number of different makers to visit Pete Whamond's Collector's Guild website, under the section 'Waffen and Allgemeine SS.' I had a conversation with Tom Wittmann several years ago in which he brought to my attention the fact that some SS blades have an exclamation point added to the end of the motto, while most don't. I had not noticed that distinction before but was and still am most grateful to know it since then. And I still don't know what to make of RZM as well as SS standardization regarding this matter!

Br. James

**JR.** · 09-11-2012, 01:50 PM

I've done several articles on SS daggers and usually only send them on to collectors that have asked me for more information on a certain subject. I believe that I posted this one on the site a short time back when there was a discussion on a post war 7/29 SS. For those that didn't see it............ here it is again.

If you've ever read through Witty's bible on the Exclamation Motto SS Daggers, it's not only confusing as to which company made which dagger during what time period, but we really have never understood why these special SS daggers were even produced in the 1st place. I'll try to do my best to explain this if I can. With period produced and known M33 SS trademarked daggers in collections today, we know for sure that at least 2 edged weapon firms made the Exclamation Motto etched blades. Those 2 companies were Jacobs and K&M ( Klittermann & Moog). For years the collecting community always assumed that the RZM 7/29 Exclamation Motto SS daggers were the work of the Jacobs company because of the association of the trademarked pieces that are seen produced by this company. To my knowledge, there are only a couple (1-3) of the Klittermann & Moog trademark early 33's in existence, so the association of the RZM 7/29 was assumed to be the product of the Jacobs firm when the RZM code system took the place on blades. To confuse the matter more, collectors were faced with Exclamation Motto SS daggers that carried the RZM 324/37 & RZM 324/38 maker codes. Once again the collecting community assumed that this was the Jacobs firm being assigned a new manufacturing code under the confusing RZM system. Bear in mind that we didn't even know of any maker marked Klittermann & Moog in existence and it is only recently that a couple have come to light.

Through the research of period information on the RZM assigned numbering system, we know that the Jacobs company was issued the license code of M 7/34 up until the year of 1935. So in fact this was just a short period from the end of where we see maker marked blades being produced, and the RZM numbering system being installed. During the years of 1936-1938 the Jacobs RZM number disappeared from the license list of those firms producing SA & SS daggers. In 1939 the RZM code of M7/118 is now seen with the Jacobs firm being assigned this new code. The RZM license list of 1939 shows the same exact address of the Jacobs firm as was listed in the 1935 list. Evidently the company either shut down for 3 years, went under or something because there is no evidence of this firm being listed again as a dagger producer until 1939.

The code of RZM M7/29 with the Klittermann & Moog trademark has been found on Transitional SA daggers bearing both of these proofs on the same blade. So this does tie the RZM M7/29 SS Exclamation Etch to the K&M firm in my mind. There are some characteristics of both the K&M and Jacobs SS daggers that we see in common. Among these are:

1. Both companies were located in the same building in the city of Solingen, just 1 floor apart from each other.

2. All the Exclamation Motto SS daggers are always found with the earliest materials, ie. nickel fittings on not only the dagger itself, but also on the scabbards.

3. All of the blade etches have the same characteristics to the etched letters.

4. With the exception of only one trademarked K&M example, none have district marks on the reverse of the crossguards.

5. We do see some different caster marks in the crossguards, but once again even the RZM 324/38 marked blades are found with nickel fittings. Something that is rarely seen in this later production time.

As I've stated before, these had to be some type of Honor Dagger that was produce for a special occasion or special SS group. Himmler didn't allow personalization's, alterations, nor deviations of the production of any SS daggers unless it was approved by him personally. Look what happened with the Sepp Dietrich SS Sword. He wore it twice before Himmler put a halt to it. There is no way that 10-12 companies had to do it one way and 2 other little firms got to add a little flare to their blade etch!

Well, hope this kind of sums it up to the best of my information, but there is one other thing that I didn't touch on and that is, where and how does the RZM 324/37 & 38 SS marked blades fit in ??? Heaven knows the answer to that one as we can't definitely tie those to either company but most likely they were produce by K&M. If you look at the RZM code and the style of font that the number have, they point toward Klittermann & Moog.

JR

**Rheingold** · 09-11-2012, 03:19 PM

[QUOTE=JR.;5479201]I've done several articles on SS daggers and usually only send them on to collectors that have asked me for more information on a certain subject. I believe that I posted this one on the site a short time back when there was a discussion on a post war 7/29 SS. For those that didn't see it............ here it is again.

Yes,you had.

I still remember a great thread ,bro

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=550025&page=3

**Craig H** · 09-11-2012, 08:45 PM

Heres a few pictures of my M7/29 with Manns number as requested by member 777 . Last time I checked the number was unattributed .

Attached Files

**Craig H** · 09-11-2012, 08:46 PM

2

Attached Files

**Craig H** · 09-11-2012, 08:48 PM

3

Attached Files

**Frogprince** · 09-12-2012, 12:54 AM

A very nice writeup on the exclamation point daggers by JR, very nice

. I took Br. James advice, and finally got around to taking a look at Pete Whamond's Collector's Guild website. Where I saw: "The RZM, Reichzeugmeisterei, (National Equipment Quartermaster), was official founded in June 1934 in Munich by the NSDAP as a Reich Hauptamt, (State Central Office), and was based on the earlier SA Quartermaster’s Department. The functions of the RZM were not only to procure and distribute items to Party formations, but also to approve chosen designs and to act as a quality control supervisor to ensure items manufactured for the Party met required specification and were standardized. Starting in late 1934 items manufactured for the SS came under the quality control of the RZM and as a result were to be marked with the RZM/SS approval/acceptance mark. In 1943 the Waffen-SS assumed full control over their uniform item production and no longer fell under the authority of the RZM." (Which I’m not vouching for as an expert on the RZM, but I think that there are a couple of individuals out there who probably know more than the vast majority of collectors.)

And then belt buckle after belt buckle, year after year, including some that (especially) dagger collectors might consider as “transitional” models with dual markings. From early on, to the later wartime years (after daggers were no longer being made to conserve resources for the war effort). With "Meine Ehre heißt Treue!" on the EM belt buckles, and "Meine Ehre heißt Treue" on the officer’s model. Which if Himmler was the control freak that everyone seems to agree on - how or why did he permit something so obvious as the belt buckles to have slightly different mottos? Now THAT to me is a mystery if we are looking for consistent (?) behavior. FP

http://http://www.germanmilitaria.co...s/Buckles.html

**777** · 09-12-2012, 01:12 AM

Obviously very nice and original dagger, but what we need is the guy behind the number. Looks like the only chance to find about these exclamations marks is to see what the original owners have in common. If "!" daggers were made for purpose, they had to be given for purpose and for certain people. I'm sure Sherlock Holmes would try to follow this path as well

**Rheingold** · 09-12-2012, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by Craig H View Post

3

What a lovely dagger

**Loke** · 09-12-2012, 02:39 PM

Thanks!

Cincerely,

Loke

Announcement

Rare! SS dagger with exclamation point

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread