PSS Police Bayonet Collection

[Frogprince]

Joe, Your “digressions” backed up by period source material, is how we learn to separate facts from beliefs. Some of which have (incorrectly) believed to have been “facts” for decades.

I have to find some notes I had from discussions years ago to see what I can look at with a new perspective. But to briefly touch on just a few things from your last post, it was I believe also circa 1941 when the Police 84/98 bayonets ceased having Police markings applied. And period Wehrmacht reworks were almost never marked as such, also showing a diversity in rework standards. With my point here being that manufacturers seem to have concentrated on production and not repair. And I do have a couple of Depot marked examples which seem to confirm the matter. FP

[Billy G]

I had completely forgotten about the old GDC thread which discussed all sorts of theories/possibilities. And there is no question that the PSS bayonets are highly coveted by many collectors as a very hard to find German Police bayonet.

But I think that part of the uncertainty of just where to put the Polizei Seitengewehr Sonderausführung as a bayonet might have to do with the context of “Sonderausführung”. From a German military perspective: The Pz Kpkw III Ausführung J (Sonderausführung) was basically the same tank with the same gun - but with a longer barrel. With my point being that it was really “Special” only in that it had been modified with a new barrel. Which gave new life to what was rapidly being an an obsolete tank, that was no longer as useful as it had been. But in a very cost effective manner.

So from my own personal perspective. I see a parallel with the PSS bayonets as a way to obtain some extra life from some Imperial-Weimar bayonets that very likely were no longer being used for one reason or another. At a time when the regular Solingen source(s) did not have sufficient capacity/resources to to take on additional work with the more highly detailed conventional Police bayonets. FP

Fred,

I believe the usually acknowledged German "frugality", especially with respect to reuse of existing edged weapons is well noted but I don't know if it this was the case when dealing with the PSS. While Weimar Polizei Seitengewehr (PS) were refurbished, you're aware they had the blades & grips shortened as well as had the grip emblems swapped to the 3R adler. When the 98/05s were reworked to yield the PSS, I believe there was more involved work done besides "shaving" down the width of the blade. Besides the scabbard & new stag grips, the intricate hilt etching was likely an involved process too IMHO.

While I don't know that I've come across a specific reason why the Germans stopped issuing the PSS, one theory would be that it was simply too cost ineffective as a seitengewehr model to justify further production.

Funny, this thread reminded me about the old GD thread too. I think I need to check the runners of my PSS for waffenampts.

[stingray69]

Hey guys

Here is one more PSS from my collection.
Maker is Gottlieb Hammesfahr

Unfortunately the blade has some plate loss,and scabbard bluing is completely gone.
http://forum.germandaggers.com/ubbth...739#Post250739

Regards
Stingray

[stingray69]

#3

[stingray69]

#5

[JoeW]

Fred,.......
While I don't know that I've come across a specific reason why the Germans stopped issuing the PSS, one theory would be that it was simply too cost ineffective as a seitengewehr model to justify further production.
........

According to the 1938 orders, those P.S. to be reworked were sent to the Tech. Pol. Schule in Berlin for distribution for factory reworking, then to be returned to the respective commands. The P.S.S. was not mentioned in those orders, though the work would have been done at the same time. But to whom were they issued and in what quantity and for what purpose eludes us.

They continued to be recognized as a issue bayonet through the publication of the 1944 Fischer weapons manual, as were the standard P.S. and the combat bayonets.

[Billy G]

Joe,

I think the question is although the PSS as a model continued to be recognized, was it still produced after, say, the initial production run or was it produced in limited quantity all the way to the end of edged weapons production? We can all agree that the PSS is a rather scarce model bayonet both in photographic evidence & what we, as collectors, come across from vets & in the hobby in general.

Can we agree that based on what little we know about the model that the PSS was either an experimental initial run or something produced in a somewhat limited quantity for a specific, yet unknown purpose? Such things like the PSS & the so-called Luftwaffe Forestry bayonet may in reality have had very plausible & far less exciting purposes as the hobby as attributed to them, but I still find the mystery of their original intended use part of the fun.

[Frogprince]

Billy,

I’m still working through the various aspects, but in the fewest words possible, the recycling of an existing bayonet is a lot faster and cheaper than making a new one from scratch. And could be accomplished in a smaller less well equipped shop with things like plating etc. subcontracted (if they had to). And besides being more robust, to a producer of steel scabbards for the trade, it should be faster and cheaper to make them than a traditional scabbard. Most likely being subcontracted as the inner springs probably were as parts from Solingen. (All of Solingen’s military contract makers had the WaA883 inspector markings in that period because it was district, not a single factory marking).

PS: Leather periodically was in short supply, and in 1938 we start to see some items like bayonet frogs made from substitutes. With one well known maker usually associated with Police items being one example that comes immediately to mind. I have some more thoughts, but I’m on my way out for the AM.

Best Regards, Fred

[Frogprince]

............ Can we agree that based on what little we know about the model that the PSS was either an experimental initial run or something produced in a somewhat limited quantity for a specific, yet unknown purpose? ........

Billy, With a run from 1938 to 194(1)? That IMO takes it out of the experimental or “trials” class, as no significant changes have been noted. I’m not finished looking yet, but absent any other evidence, I might end up suggesting that it could have been considered a “limited standard” (if it in context was a period U.S. weapon). And what we need is a period photo or two of it being used to see what kind of unit carried it. But good luck with that - because I’m still looking for an Sg.24(t) in use photo. Fred

[Billy G]

Fred,

I think "limited standard" is plausible but it begs the questions why was the PSS limited & for whom? Without some sort of written documentation or photographic evidence, I think we're just guessing, sad to say.

[Frogprince]

Fred,

I think "limited standard" is plausible but it begs the questions why was the PSS limited & for whom? Without some sort of written documentation or photographic evidence, I think we're just guessing, sad to say.

Billy, To be sure there is a lot of guesswork without documentation of one kind or another. But as the earlier “SS Bayonet” thread elsewhere demonstrated - some clues showed up once the topic received some closer attention using the resources we now have available (ie: SS Kampfgruppe Nord and some other source material).

The one thing that has been bothering me for a while is the 1938 date. Was it just a coincidence? Or did the German Police have an extraordinary immediate (or soon to be urgent) need to equip its forces which led to the adoption of a “Special” model? What I am referring to here is the 1938 Anschluß when it annexed Austria (I have an interesting photo showing both German and Austrian border police dismantling a border post). With the second being the Sudetenland later in the year, that was soon followed by Czechoslovakia itself.

Joe knows this stuff much better than I do as to who did what and when, but that is where my thinking is heading at the moment. Fred

[Ron Weinand]

My pss

Here are photos of my PSS. The quality is far superior to most TR bayonets and the blue on the scabbard is fantastic IMO.

[JoeW]

The Anschluss resulted in no immediate need for bayonets Fred. The Austrian police S.95s remained in service. All Gendarmerie forces in the new Ostmark were equipped only with the S.95. And the Sudentenland/Czech takeover didn't strain police resources either.

The requirements ordered for the rework the old Prussian police bayonets were intended to maker the bayonets less cumbersome and to remove the vestiges of the Prussian state: the clamshell and star insignia on the grip. Someone decided to order the reworking of an undetermined number of standard S.98/05s, but the result was hardly standard. The P.S.S. like all butcher bayonets remained about 2 1/2" shorter than the uncut Prussian police clamshell bayonet, yet 1 1/2" longer than the standard re-worked police bayonet. Odd, but definitely in keeping with the Sonderausfuhrung designation.

It is open to theory. Something as exotic as a design for special Ehrenkompanie established for special purposes, or the an attempt to supplement the supply of standard police bayonets resulting from re-working with the transformation of exiting supplies of S.98/05s.

Ron, yours sure is a beautiful piece. The blue on the scabbard is fantastic. So was the blue on the scabbard of the one I sold to Eric Von Rader. So much so that he was worried it had been reblued from some comments he received after receiving it from me at the SOS a couple years ago.

I checked Angolia's 1974 book "Edged Weaponry of the Third Reich" and found the first SS reference to the P.S.S. on page 240. "This modification was worn as late as 1941, and in particular by some members of the SS-Police security units." The footnote for this statement was the 1941 Fischer weapons book that of course contains no such information.

[Frogprince]

Joe, It’s true I used the takeovers as an example to see what your input was as regards Police needs. But what I also had in mind was your earlier statement as follows:

As for the capacity of Solingen to supply the police, I might repeat the facts I included in my long ago article in TJohnson Vol. IV. At the beginning of the war, the Ordnungspolizei recorded 90,000 bayonets in service. Less than a year later, 1.8.40, the supply almost doubled to 178,820. I would conclude that to be primarily S84/98s, as we know there was some production of police service bayonets. In February 1940, the Ordnungspolizei issued corrections (Deckblaetter) to the 1938 order to shorten bayonets. This Deckblaetter ordered the renumbering of illustrations in the sidearm manual, eliminating the older long bayonets and removing that text.

In June of 1941, requests for replacement of police service bayonets (P.S.) would be satisfied only with the S.84/98. From this I conclude that the production of the P.S. ceased.

That’s a difference of about 89,000 bayonets or almost 100 percent. With my point being that I would think that something had to going on in terms of personnel that required all that extra supply of bayonets in a short period of time.

And there is no question that Ron’s P.S.S. bayonet is indeed a beautiful example. But I also know that the quality of the P.S.S. bayonets varies, and that it is not necessarily better if you are looking at it in terms of fit and finish. With what I am referring to being the basic bayonet minus the nickel plating. With some of the 84/98 military/other contract makers keeping the high polish blued finish into 1942 with consistently better fitting components (I'm disregarding the stag grips in the comparison, although it could be something that is looked at). But this is just my own general opinion from a manufacturing point of view. Fred

[JoeW]

There is some information available Fred to help shape some theories. Small amounts of S.84/98s were needed by the Motorized Gendarmerie when they switched to that bayonet during the late 1930s. At the beginning of the war, the ORPO was allowed a 20 000 man levy of new recruits for the police battalions destined for the east. But photo evidence shows a variety of bayonets in use there: P.S., S.98/05 and S.84/98s.

A few of the P.S.S. are in very worn condition. The one above, as well as the one used by Angolia in his book in the reference above. Both have almost all the blue gone from the scabbard. But the rest seem in vg to exc condition. Still not many and as a percentage of originals, it makes one wonder why the style was accorded a distinct mention if it was only to be for general usage.