Eickhorn "Defflinger" with Alcoso Blade

[jwburchell]

Calling for some help and opinions here from those more experienced than I with German WW2 Heer sabers. This recently-acquired example shows a combination of features. Research in my references and on this forum indicate it to be an Eickhorn "Derfflinger" pattern, model 1735 saber. However, the blade is clearly stamped under the reverse ricasso with the symbol (scales) and name of "ALCOSO / SOLINGEN".

I am wondering if the Eickhorn blade might have been damaged and later replaced with one by Alcoso; or if there are known examples of blades and other fittings having legitimately been shared/used by both of these firms.

There is one small spot indicating a small repair to the grip which may possibly relate to a damaged blade having been replaced.

Having heard of "parts daggers" being made-up after the war, I expect that this was also done with swords....my biggest concern in this case.

Other features of this example include knuckle bow, back-strap and related fittings in gold-plated aluminum and a blued-steel scabbard. "Ges. Gesch." is stamped on the underside of the quillon block. The nickel-plated blade measures 33-7/8 inches.

As well, there is an owner's monogram (initials "EH") engraved on the reverse langet. Not sure if it is significant, but the same initials are found on a sword with an ALCOSO blade which appears in post #7 of the following thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=372882&highlight=Derfflinger

All feedback, or questions for clarification, will be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

John

[jwburchell]

Reverse & maker's mark on blade:

[jwburchell]

More detail pix:

[jwburchell]

Detail pictures: "Ges.Gesch" & repair to grip:

[SCHUPO]

John,

There are a couple of possibilities as you suggest.

First, that the blade was replaced by Alcoso or that the hilt was replaced by Eickhorn during the period of use. It is also possible that Alcoso bought the hilt parts from Eickhorn but I have not seen this before on a patented and named hilt like this.

Second, that the blade and hilt were married after the war and you have a "Frankenstein" sword.

I would also like to hear Swordfish chime in on this one to see if he has seen this particular combination before.

[SwordFish]

Man- that's a strange one.

First, let me say i've seen sabers, clearly hilted during the reign on the Reich, though with non-period blades. For example, i've seen pieces with a Puma hilt assembly, fitted to an M-89 blade. In my opinion, the piece was right as rain, and I suspect the officer/NCO utilized a family blade and had it hilted onto a NS era assembly. it came with a perfectly fit scabbard, which appeared to be a period produced scabbard, as opposed to the original '89s scabbard. Obviously, both the blade and scabbard were straight as a board.

My point in surfacing the particular '89 blade with PUma hilt simply is there to illustrate that strange things were undoubtedly done during the NS era. There is no question in my mind.

So, could this piece have been intentionally hilted onto a blade the officer or his family already owned? I'd have to look through my reference and see if we can nail down specific dates that ACS used any one of their various maker marks. Is it possible the blade came off a Weimar or later Imperial era sword? Possibly. Though, woring against this theory is cost. It would be significantly more cost effective for the officer to simply retain the older, original pattern, or just buy a whole saber- say by Eickhorn.

Could this blade have come for a specific pattern ACS which as was mentioned could have been damaged, and as such, the officer like the look of this Eickhorn hilt and have it hilted onto his ACS blade? Possibly- but again what about cost effectiveness.

Could the piece have been manufactured in the ACS or Eickhorn factory, after they obtained some blades, or hilts for that matter, from their competitor? Possibly, though unlikely since a marked blade and a proprietary hilt design would typically preclude that on Heer sabers. Remeber, both companies were amoungst the larger of the blade producers.

How 'bout post-war "Frankenstein"? This too is possible. I think Schupo-George, James-Damast, of Fred-Frog Prince and a couple other sword guys know what a pain in the arse unpeening a tang to hilt, then subsequently repeening and effecting the job well. It's not fun, and often not worth doing so as a collector unless your have some very rare or scarce piece or a piece your really like for whatever reason.

What about a GI, in Germany as part of the Army of occupation found various items, damaged to one degree or another, and paid a blacksmith or other metal artisan a pack of smokes and bar of chocolate to marry the hilt with the ACS blade? Possible, but marginally slim chances.

What I will say with confidence is this: the piece was married well. Whomever preformed the job did so very well. Not the tollerances. Inevitably, a person will find that when they try to marry a saber blade to a different hilt, or even a new grip, there WILL ALWAYS be fit problems which WILL require some hand work and hand fitting, usually involving the use of power tools or chizles. Often, this leaves latent prints (the LEO guys should likke that analogy), most often viewed with respect to tollerances...spacing in areas such as where the backstrap/pommel cap trisects the P-guard and the grip. 90% of the time, even with hand and machine fitting, there will still be some fit issues- and this is an area where it's typically noted. Also, when rehilting a blade to a non-factory hilt/grip, fit between the celluloid grip and backstrap start to cant off due to any small variances in size. In the case of this saber, that just does not appear to be the case.

Also of note- the scabbard. It's blued, rather than painted. This may or may not be relevent. Blued scabbards are seldom seen. Out of every Heer saber i've ever owned or handled, i'v only come accross a couple. The only saber I currently own which has a blued scabbard is an Eickhorn Wrangel pattern- an odd one..bird faces to it's left, rather than the typically seen right.

Whoever did this work did a very good job. Almost too good. There are ALOT of possibilities...we could go on all day speculating. With all this fun speculation said, if it were me considering purchasing the piece, I would assume it was married during the NS era, and as such a period item. It's an oddball for sure. I've never seen an Alcoso mared and a clearly proprietary (proprietary being a key word in this context) Eickhorn (or visa versa) Heer saber married together. We know there was some very sporadic part sharing between the 2 as I have ACS patterns and Eickhorn Roon (oak-leaf type- non eagle/swas types) patterns who's P-guard/Quillion/langet part are identical to a T...and a grip ferrule here and there. I like the fit i'm seeing on this piece. It all tells me this was assembled with care, most likely by a professional. As I said, you'll find that an Alcoso tang is often shaped and slanted to a differing angle than that of it's Eickhorn counterpart. Fitting can be a big challenge. It can be done by a collector with some know how and experience, but more often than not, it leaves tell tale signs. I'm just not seeing any of those signs on this piece.

I too would love to hear from others on this one. I have to believe another collector has seen a proprietarily marked blade married with a proprietary hilt assembly at some point. Consequently, the PUma hilt and M-89 blade which I referenced above, did not have a marked blade. This enigma is a conundrum i'd love to see cracked.

....sorry for the long answer. You can send me the bill for the new bifocals you'll now need

[jwburchell]

Thank you for the responses SHUPO and especially Swordfish for taking the time to comment in depth on this saber. I truly appreciate the benefit of your experience and am thus far encouraged by what I have read. I look forward to further substantive feedback from others.

[Frogprince]

A strange one for sure, I’ve see the “family keepsake” type swords before. But if they were done for sentimental (versus) economic reasons they might have some kind of indication that it was done for that reason. (It’s not an absolute, just something that you might see.)

Looking at this sword itself, it looks like it might be a white metal base material for the hilt which suggests later rather than earlier. And the black paint to try and cover up missing celluloid suggests postwar (for at least that particular aspect of its appearance).

But as Tom (Swordfish) mentions, the scabbard is blued which is a tad unusual. And it does seem to match the blade nicely. So they look like they may have been together for a long time. And the workmanship that went into any “marriage” (if that is the case) seems to be good.

So, if I had to guess. A possibly earlier blade (and scabbard) married to a later hilt during the NS period. For economic reasons(?). FP