Two German Swords

[ww2vault]

Hi,

I received two German swords from a veteran today and was wondering more about them. I am completely new to the realm of German swords, so new in-fact, these are my first two!

The story about how I acquired them, I interview veterans about their military service, (Mainly WWII vets) and this veteran found out I put on militaria displays and said he had two German swords.

This veteran was in the U.S. Navy during WWII and had a friend who was in the 82nd Airborne and dropped into Germany near the end of the war. His friend brought home 5 German swords and gave two to him.

They both use to have their scabbards, but the veteran left them in the garage for a while and they rusted some. He had to throw away the scabbards sadly.

Anyways, I was just wondering if anyone could fill me more about what swords these are and anything else interesting about them such as what they are made out of. Thanks!

Photos ----> http://community.webshots.com/album/574413542EtVnpx

- Jeff

[SwordFish]

The dovehead sword appears to be an officer/NCO saber, manufactured by Horster. The 2nd sword, appears to be an EMs saber.

Are there any stampings on the hilt or blade of either? It was common for Horster not to mark their sabers so you may not find one of the officer saber.

What else would you like to know about these? You can PM me if you want further details which the membership would find boring as minutia

Tom

[ww2vault]

Well, other then the two makers marks on the blades, there are no other discernable stampings. What years would you put the two swords?

I also heard that the hilts hand-guards were made of either silver or aluminum, which was it? And were they solid or just plated with it?

- Jeff

[ww2vault]

Ah, another question. Why is one hand-guard detailed with vines and swastika and the other has no detail? Was one for officers and the other for EM?

Also, on the plainer swords hand-guard is was coated in something because in one spot it started to come off. What was it coated in?

- Jeff

[SCHUPO]

Jeff,

Tom explained that the plain sword is an enlisted man's and the more
ornate sword is for officers. Both have been heavilly moisture damaged it seems and are made of pot metal with nickel and gilt plating respectively. They were often coated with laquer from the factory.

[James N.]

As to dates on these, my understanding is that the nickel-plated EM's sword could be earlier than the officer's, which couldn't date before Hitler came into power as president/chancellor: Fuhrer. ( I think 1935 was when a new regulation went into effect with the then-new national symbol. ) Due to wartime shortages of materials, manufacture of "unnecessary" items like swords was prohibited after '43; so obviously they fall between those years. If the officer's sword has an alluminum hilt ( which from the photo's hard to tell - but if it does, it'll be noticeably lightweight compared to the other one ), I think it's more likely to be from later in the period; that is, wartime - post 1939 - versus pre-war.

[ww2vault]

Thank you for the info James. What pictures of the officers hilt would you like for me to take so you can get a better idea? The hilt is very clean looking and doesn't show much age.

- Jeff

[James N.]

WW2vault,

I'm sorry to say that I just gave your original photos nothing but a cursory look, mainly due to my slow-loading modem. On a closer look, I have a particular question: is the officer's sword ( with eagle & swastica, etc. ) gilded ( gold wash ) or silvered like it looks? That's what I wanted to be sure of; I think Swordfish and Schupo have assumed along with me that it was gilded, because most of them are - that would be regulation for army officers. BUT if it IS silvered, then it's NOT an army sword. It's definitely NOT Luftwaffe ( air force ) or Kreigsmarine ( navy ) either, since those branches had their own particular patterns. Other possibilities are SS or Police officers, who used the army patterns but with silver hilts until recieving their own specific pattern, called a degen. Someone else will have to speculate further with you on this line of reasoning; I simply don't have the expertise to go further with them, as so far I'm concentrating on the common Heer ( army ) examples. That also would make it unlikely this is an aluminum hilt, since by the time alluminum was being used the SS and Police already had their degens. Army hilts are usually brass ( earliest ), alluminum, or some degraded alloy usually refered to as pot metal which is especially common on daggers. ( I'm not sure about its use on swords, though; yours looks like brass to me. )

The EM's sword was commonly worn for dress occasions particularly by higher-level army sergeants. If I'm reading right it looks like Robert Klass is the name of the manufacturer. These commonly had steel hilts, nickel-plated; the separation of the plating you see is called "lifting". Oddly enough, both of these were "private-purchase" items, meaning they weren't issued by the government; rather they were bought by the officers & NCO's. I hope needless to say swords were NEVER worn in combat; though they were probably near at hand for the anticipated victory parades through Warsaw, Paris, and even Moscow!

[ww2vault]

Ah James, thank you again for a better idea of what the swords are! Never seeing what the difference between a gilded hilt and a silvered hilt, I really do think that it is mostly silvered.

Also, you are correct sir, the EM sword has the Robert Klass makers mark. I have another picture that I tried to take of the makers mark on the officers sword; however, it's not very easy to read, even for me with the naked eye!

- Jeff

[James N.]

Jeff,

Doing a little more looking, I find the police and SS used army-type swords until adoption of their own designs in mid-1936; so it's likely yours is pre-war, ca. 1934-36, unless it's for another paramilitary group I haven't identified. If you're interested in putting them on the E-stand, I might be interested in the officer's, despite the nasty hole in the grip. ( Unless it has other problems not evident in your photos. ) I have a couple of these, but none in silver. Unfortunately, I don't need the other at all, since I have one already; though by a different maker. You can send me a private message if you're interested.