1st luft Siegfried Waffen

[WW2-Collector]

Hello
Pack 1st model Luftwaffe’s are not seen to often yours has the typical construction traits you see on this maker- triple wire wrap gripped - inset brass medallions on the pommel - I would consider this a mid period made piece IMO here’s a picture of mine for comparison .

[Dutchknive]

And godts, good luck at Ciney. Beware of the prices asked overthere. I didn't mean to harm you, but it sounded in your first post, that i didnt know much about it, and that's not true. Always do the smell test at Ciney, most of the scabbards have there leather replaced. And avoid the famous Holler, and Paul weyersberg (Berlin) daggers, last Ciney a saw a few of them.

Good luck, and if you need advise, post here, or mail me

[Godts]

Thanks again for the replies all, it has made me a whole lot wiser the last few days.

WW2-collector: that's a nice dagger u have there, I also think mine's mid period, mostly because I've read the OLC clip on the hanger only appears on mid and 2nd period's. And since 2nd period's are aluminium (as far as I understand) and mine isn't that kinda narrows it down

Dutch Knife: as I said before, forget about it. It's all based on a misunderstanding. If u still have some more info on this dagger, plz feel free to mail it to me or post a link or something. And if i ever need info or anything else and my English fails me be sure to get some Dutch messages

About Ciney: i'm just going there to get a taste of the atmosphere and MAYBE buy an EK2 if i can b sure of it's authenticity. Fact is since i'm a novice i just lack too much info to be sure about a purchase on those fairs, so i stick to sites like this and other collector sites. I just did my first dagger purchase with mr. Wittmann and Lakesidetrader is also on my list. Both sites have nice Ernst Pack / Siegfried waffen pieces which is the maker I decided to collect.

Best,
Godts

[Bagel]

1st model lufts

Hey guys, I hope you don't mind me jumping into another old thread, but these 1st model lufts are starting to drive me crazy. I think a large part of that is due to the fact that I like them so much and I want to understand them. I've tried asking questions based on real examples when I see them, but some people get their panties in a twist as though I were making a personal attack on their manhood.

To begin with, I understand that there are three basic types of 1st model lufts:
1) Early heavy nickle-silver types where the sun wheel discs are brass inserts.

2) Transitional pieces (I think this is where I get the most confused). The chains are made of aluminum, but the fittings are still nickle/silver? The sun wheel discs are still inserts, or can it be integrated or is it always?

3) Late 1st model aluminum, aluminum chains and fittings, where the sun wheel discs are actually an integrated part of the hilt design.

After that, I get fuzzy. The chains themselves seem to come in many different lengths, and I cannot remember if or how that pertains to which type of dagger it is. I believe that I've seen:
1) 5 links upper chain, 9 on the lower

2) 6 links upper chain, 9 on the lower

3) 9 links upper chain, 13 on the lower

4) 9 links upper chain, 14 on the lower

Is anyone willing to start things off and throw me a bone here? I'm mainly concerned with definitive/easy ways to identify which type I'm looking at, because I clearly do not have a good grasp on it yet. I've seen two 1st luft daggers that were both called transitionals, with one in better condition and half the price of the other, but the more beat-up and more expensive one sold while the other sat around. What pieces of this puzzle am I missing?

[Bagel]

transitional

Ok, I've now been informed that Transitionals have aluminum chains with (sometimes?) pot metal (or zinc) fittings that were (sometimes heavily) plated. I think they (always?) have the one piece pommel where the swastika has the gold wash and is no longer a brass insert. This is where all the questions are for me, I think.

For Transitionals:
1) Is the sun wheel disc always the later integrated type?

2) Are the fittings always pot metal/zinc, or are they ever the early nickle/silver or the late aluminum?

3) Are the hangers always OLC marked, or a set length? i.e. can you determine anything by looking at the chain?

[WW2-Collector]

The Mid period 1st Model Luftwaffe’s sometimes have the inset disc and sometimes they do not. They are silver plated over a base metal. Most have the thick crossguard butt section. They can be seen with aluminum chains or silver chains its simple - early solid nickel silver-plated base metal (Mid) or late aluminum. You will find that no conforming constructions traits hold true on the mid period examples they vary by maker. The number of links can vary slightly but the norm is 9 upper 14 lower. Pick up Tom Wittmanns Luftwaffe book it has allot of detailed information on these.

Ok, I've now been informed that Transitionals have aluminum chains with (sometimes?) pot metal (or zinc) fittings that were (sometimes heavily) plated. I think they (always?) have the one piece pommel where the swastika has the gold wash and is no longer a brass insert. This is where all the questions are for me, I think.

For Transitionals:
1) Is the sun wheel disc always the later integrated type?

2) Are the fittings always pot metal/zinc, or are they ever the early nickle/silver or the late aluminum?

3) Are the hangers always OLC marked, or a set length? i.e. can you determine anything by looking at the chain?

[WW2-Collector]

Mid Period Pack-Inset Discs-triple wire wrapped grip-Steel scabbard fittings-plated chain & hilt



Klaas-Mid period-Aluminum chain-Plated base metal

[Bagel]

pics

Those are nice quality pics, thanks for posting them!

I had the opportunity recently to talk a bit with Bill Shea and his blade-master, Mike... it shed some light on why I've been so confused about these things.