Italian Colonial Police Presentation Dagger: Presented to ORPO & SS Graduates

[F. J. Stephens]

PAI Dagger

Of the 400 some odd award to the German SS only about 12 are known in collections today here is mine.

Mr. Pasqueralle,

What is that trademark shown on your PAI dagger?

FJS

[JoeW]

Here it is Fred.



Flli. Scuotto S.A. from Napoli. As can be seen from the examples posted here, there are at least two variations of scabbards.

[Raffaello Carola]

Yes exist some variations of the leather scabbards one have an
greek motif (meander) the photo make part of the last book of
Cesare Calamandrei about the italian daggers. This is the scan
of this book an very strange scabbard is in blue leather.
cheers
Raffaello

[JoeW]

Rafaello, that is an interesting variation. Of the two presentation PAI daggers at the Show of Shows, one had a scabbard similar to T. Pasqueralle's. It also had a metal support piece attached to the rear inside the scabbard, just below where the cross-guard would rest. The other was similar to mine shown at the beginning of this thread and came with a blue cloth spacer like yours shown above.

In reviewing the participants listed in some of the remembrance book against official records, the RSHA (Sicherheitspolizei) classes seem to have been evenly populated by officers of the Gestapo, Kriminalpolizei and SD.

[Raffaello Carola]

a metal support piece attached to the rear inside the scabbard

Yes is right! the original scabbard have inside this metal support
(see the photo) of one of my collection.
Two interesting threads; one about the Billao PAI with the rare pocket
knife, and another about the italian daggers repro (some are very dangerous)
cheers
Raffaello

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=Billao

database of italian daggers repro
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=Billao

[JoeW]

"Original"? In what way? Original non-presentation PAI dagger scabbard used with the Maraffa presentation daggers? Both types are original, thought the size of the securing strap button varies also.

[Raffaello Carola]

Dear Joe,

is possible I not understand that you wrote, the Billao PAI is well reproduced by Del Tin
factory (20 years ago) more Billao are without the leather scabbard (very fragile) and
is possible the knife is original but the scabbard is an copy.
The original scabbard have the metal support inside.
This is the table of the book of Cesare Calamandrei about the fake scabbard produced
in the last years 70' very similar at the original.
Exist original scabbard in white or blue leather but all have the metal support inside to
block the blade.

[JoeW]

Yes, I think the confusion comes from the use of word "original". You say the Billao PAI dagger was reproduce 20 years ago. But the Maraffa PAI has not been reproduced.

There are two original types of scabbards used on the Maraffa PAI dagger: the style with the metal support that you say is original to the Billao PAI dagger and the scabbard like that shown with my dagger at the beginning of the thread and the additional example posted.

[F. J. Stephens]

PAI Dagger

Hello JoeW, and Rafaello,

Thank you for posting the images of the trademark, and also the other details concerning the scabbard variants and copy items - all very interesting, and I am grateful to you for making it available.

I was at the SoS, so am sorry that we didn't run into each other - but hopefully at the MAX later this year.

Best regards

FJS

[JoeW]

Yes, I am sorry we did not meet.

One further thing regarding the presentation of this dagger. We discussed with others whether an Urkunde would have accompanied the dagger. Judging from the fine photo posted in this link http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=569762 of the presentation ceremony, no one seems to have an urkunde.

[F. J. Stephens]

PAI Urkunde?

Yes, I am sorry we did not meet.

One further thing regarding the presentation of this dagger. We discussed with others whether an Urkunde would have accompanied the dagger. Judging from the fine photo posted in this link http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=569762 of the presentation ceremony, no one seems to have an urkunde.

That is a rather interesting point, Joe, the absence of an Urkunde. The officer in the centre of the photo (on the link that you supplied), appears to be reading the names of recipients/graduates who are to receive the daggers - so perhaps they are to be regarded as a personal gift from the Italian General (much in the same manner as the Himmler SS daggers) rather than being an "Honour Dagger" as such?

I don't ever recall seeing any reference to a Himmler presentation dagger detailed in any of the SS Dienstalterliste (thus confirming that it is a private or personal gift); and so it might be the same situation for these Italian Colonial Police daggers - a semi-official privately awarded item, and not officially listed as an award or decoration.

There must be more to learn about these pieces, so it will be interesting to see if any of our Italian collector enthusiasts can shed more light on the matter.

FJS

[JoeW]

Fred, I don't believe I ever used the word "honor" in describing these in my article in "The Military Advisor", or in this thread that I started almost four years ago. If I did, please excuse my exuberance regarding these daggers. I don't know why the period press photo used the term either, but someone must have provided it to the photographer for their description. But I agree, it is hardly an official term. By the way, did you have an opportunity to read the complete article I wrote?

Of course, not seeing an apparent Urkunde in the hands of three graduates in the press photo does not mean one was not presented. Viewing a photo of the presentation ceremonies for new graduates of the SS-Junkerschulen, one does not see an Urkunde handed out with the SS-Fuhrerdegen. Does that mean one was not presented? And of course, we do not know what exactly was on the paper the SS-Stubaf was reading do we? Was it simply a handwritten list, or perhaps an official list of graduates of the class entitled to the PAI officer dagger.

But I disagree with your assessment of them as a semi-privately awarded item; a personal gift of General Maraffa. All Italian graduates of the Italian colonial police school in Tivoli received the PAI dagger. The German ORPO and RSHA graduates received the PAI dagger at the official conclusion of their attendance at the school. It was a mark of graduation. That their dagger was embellished with the signature of the commanding general of the school was perhaps a sign of "Verbundenheit" of the two police forces of the two countries.

[Raffaello Carola]

so perhaps they are to be regarded as a personal gift from the Italian General
(much in the same manner as the Himmler SS daggers) rather than being an "Honour Dagger" as such?

I have photographed for the first time this dagger some years ago in
the Italian Police Museum; the history and the research about this dagger
is very difficult becouse don't exist document about the designation
only an general info about an "dagger of honor" donate to the German
officers who attended the frequence at the colonial training PAI at the
school of Tivoli. In the last book of Cesare Calamandrei about the italian
dagger (2011) ISBN 978-88-87372-92-2 not have find other info about
only an generically identification of gift or honour dagger General Marraffa.

[Raffaello Carola]

double post

[Raffaello Carola]

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