HJ Leaders Dagger for your Appraisal

[MAL]

Hi All

Yet another dagger for your help to appraise, this time it a HJ Leaders Dagger maker marker RZM M7/36.

Thanks
Mal

[Skipper Greenwade]

Based on the pictures, it looks like we have a winner!

Best,
Skip

[Jeff Nichols]

Nice!!!! That leather is in super shape, nicest I ever seen!
Cheers...Jeff

[Serge M.]

I'm not sure without better photos of certain areas, however at this point I have to disagree with my esteemed colleagues Skipper and Jeff.
First, HJ Leader daggers have been is some cases have been very well reproduced.
Here's what I see that perhaps this is one of these repro's.

1. The leather washer is new looking and appears to be oversize.
2. The pommel insignia plate actually extends over the grip body.
3. Eagle left talon seems to be clutching a torch instead of a hammer.
A clearer, "macro" close up will dermine quite quickly is this is one of
the "torch" repros. At this point that is what appears to be rather than
the proper hammer as on all original examples.

-wagner-

[William J]

2 more cents

Very interesting dagger indeed. Having owned a very nicely conditioned one of these years ago, my first thoughts were that the leather, if nothing else, has almost certainly been replaced. It has very raised "bumps" (much more so than mine had) and I don't see any wear or age at all. (Although I know that individuals have some still cased and probably never worn.) I like the tarnishing on the fittings, but I would have liked to see the Blut and Ehre! motto on the blade for a better judgement.

I hope for you that it's real, but I'd be cautious here with what has to be a VERY expensive purchase!

Great collecting,

William

[MAL]

Thanks again all

I will try and get a better pictures of the hammer in the eagles claw and the pommel.

Mal

[DR DOLCH]

I do not like the looks of it

[Skipper Greenwade]

I'll defer to the more academic on the Forum...if there are that many red flags, at best it will be a problem in the future when the time comes to sell. I puchased my HJ Leader many, many years ago and - apparently - haven't kept up with them.

Sorry for any confusion,
Skip

[RussellM]

I'd like to see the position of the motto on the blade, with the hilt in the pic as well. To add to the list already covered, the RZM mark looks quite large as well, with the circle extending over the edges of the centre blade flat. These leader daggers are heavily faked - be careful.

Regards
Russell

[Billy G]

Although Serge has more experience than I with these, my first thoughts are that the RZM mark seems thicker than others I've seen & the leather looks too good to be original IMO. I look forward to better pics of the adler.

[Serge M.]

Billy and Russell are correct. The RZM logo is wrong.
The outer circle on originals are thin. Also the "M7/36" Horster RZM number is wrong also. The "3" should not have a "flat top", and the "6" is wrong also.

HJ Horster (7/36). Image taken from Tom Johnson's "German Daggers" pg.595.


1. On this image note the adler, note the left talon has the proper "hammer" and not a "torch". Also note how close that leg that hold the hammer is to the body of the eagle compared to the image on MAL's example.
2. On original "Horster" (7/36's) that I have examined none of them had the
"Top scabbard ring" placed as low on the scabbard fitting as the one shown on MAL's example.
3. Throat fitting on originals are thicker as shown in this this image.



Along with William's observation regarding new leather, and the fact that I am 99% certain that "Horster" did not make a pommel cap that extended over the body of the grip, that I feel confident that additional photos will not be necessary from MAL to post.

In My opinion I feel confident to state that I firmly believe after examining the traits of MAL's HJ 7/36 (Horster) Leader dagger that that example shows all the traits of a "Torch HJ Repro". To the best of my knowledge, these fakes were produced in the 1960's to early to mid 1970's, maybe later. The dagger is a complete modern reproduction with no original period parts on it. - Sorry!

-wagner-

[Frogprince]

Regrettably I have to concur with those who do not hold a high opinion of this dagger. Unlike some others they are not really badly done reproductions. But a reproduction is still a reproduction, having for some reason seen more than a few for sale at shows lately. FP

[MAL]

Many thanks All

I really appreciate all your help and advice, with such good reproductions out there it's a hard game to keep up with. Because you want one so much you tend to be blinded to there faults which can end up an expensive mistake.

Thanks to your advice I will pass on this dagger and wait till a genuine one comes up, thank goodness for WA best thing I have joined since I started collecting.

Mal

[SwordFish]

I'll throw my 2 pesos in the hat on this one. Not really an HJ nor leader collector. Have handled some examples however. This one instantly peeked my attention. The blade buffer, and the MM immediatly made me say . But then again, this area is not my strongsuite. I think you have chosen wisely on this one and thankfully, WAF has a membership who offers opinions quickly, accurately, and provide sound reasons why they like or dislike a particular piece. People here are very eager and willing to help. Really, thats what makes WAF the best overall community forum...even though I also like the forum for edged weapons guys .

Good collecting friends and take care....
PS-I'm getting over my latest anti-saber afflication...I'm getting that strong urge to add a few more to be closer toward achieving my 220ish goal of owning every Army model sword....even though I shouldn't ($$$$ is tight here in the USA ). Those of you who know me know that I was going through a bout of collector burnout .

Tommy Gun