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**Wizard** · 05-19-2005, 05:51 AM

Hello Mr. Lipps,
I don't have Wittman's SS book, but please compare this to the ground Rohm SS that is in Col. Johnson's volume I. There you will see a Herder on the bottom half of the page. My Herder is almost exactly like Johnson's, except for some acid-etching details.

**JR.** · 05-19-2005, 01:35 PM

I have a couple of questions on this dagger. 1. The photos don't appear to be the thin, narrow, and smooth grain grip that I have come to associate with the Herder firm. 2. The photos of the scabbard are difficult to ascertain whether this has been repainted, re-blued or if it is original anodizing. 3. The placement of the eagle in Herder SS daggers is very low and noticably so when compared to other SS daggers made during the 3rd Reich. This isn't evident from what is seen with this piece. Lastly, Herder almost always used PA crossguard fittings. Although the grip and crossguard fit is proper, these fitting and grip appear to be something other that what Herder almost always used in combination.

**Larry Lipps** · 05-19-2005, 06:34 PM

Guys, I can't speak to the grip issue because I can't say I've handled enough Herder's to have really paid that kind of attention. After checking out Johnson's Vol. 1, I can see what Wizard is talking about. That being said, I'm going to quote from Wittmann's book, page 695 where he lists the different maker's marks and etches.

"The below etches are also shown for comparative purposes. Many appear the same as those cited above, but there are also subtle differences which can be seen in some of the other letters. These could be explained as wear to the template used, or they could mean additional etching subcontractors were used."

It's just another instance where not having it in hand makes it difficult to make a positive call.

**Wizard** · 05-19-2005, 07:17 PM

Mr. Lipps,
Any chance you can please post the Herder logo in Wittman's book? Thank you.

If anyone is interested, Bill Shea has a SS Herder for sale. It matches almost perfectly to Col. Johnson's and my own personal example. PA crossguard present, as JR pointed out.

**Skipper Greenwade** · 05-19-2005, 07:20 PM

Great discussion everyone. Some good observations have been made and I'm afraid I must agree with Larry's point that this is a tough call to make (1.)given the questions raised and (2.) without having the dagger in hand. I'm certainly not ready to regard this as anything but an original dagger, but it may well not be a 'textbook' example of a Herder '33 SS dagger.

This reminds me how academic our hobby has become and how difficult it must be for the new collectors out there who have to sift through so much information. That said, I can't imagine being a new collector without the benefit of this Forum!

Thanks to all for their input,
Skip

**nellyp51** · 05-20-2005, 07:11 AM

Awsome article gents, makes me want to buy one..

**Colorado** · 05-20-2005, 11:35 AM

Wizard - Way to take a stand on an item. I will check my Herder at home tonight. I agree with JR about the grips, but have not seen enough to know the variations if any that exist.

**Sayle F** · 05-22-2005, 01:58 AM

Herder

The grip does not look like any Herder I have seen , and ever Herder ss dagger I have owned Has a period after ABR. Interesting

Attached Files

herder logo.JPG (72.6 KB, 243 views)

**Sayle F** · 05-22-2005, 02:03 AM

Thin Grip and eagle low.

Attached Files

herder grip.JPG (60.7 KB, 244 views)

**LES Y** · 05-22-2005, 03:07 AM

Here's the SS Herder logo from the GD Ref section

Les

Attached Files

bnfgghfgh.jpg (29.5 KB, 240 views)

**GaryMJ** · 05-22-2005, 09:30 AM

Here's a link to a comparison of this Herder and 3 others, 3 of them exhibit the same characteristics in motto form, Maker's Mark and grip shape/eagle position. Notice for example as 1 point of comparison, the "R" of Herder. I can't upload the pics, so here's a link, if anyone wants to upload them to the topic, feel free

http://home.tiscali.co.za/~ems/

Red

**Jeff Nichols** · 05-22-2005, 10:04 AM

Hello Gents, I agree great discussion here.

IMHO there is nothing wrong with this dagger. The grip is smooth and the contour is fine. It is true that templates did wear,a great deal,which would explain the period problem,plus look at the quality of the blade and the motto and the workmanship.Again,IMHO I do not think not having a period after ABR outweighs the quality of the rest of this piece. The grip is beautiful,which I think is original to the piece,whether it is a standard Herder grip or not,it is still original. We all know firms at the time did borrow parts from each other. Also,the link Red just provided on other Herders is great,looking at these other Herders,this one fits right in.

Again great discussion from everyone,and no punt intended but I think we are getting a little over nit-picky here. Cheers...Jeff

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