Tropical M40 Caps; Desirability, Prices and what does the future hold?

[BenVK]

I've always been puzzled by the prices of tropical M40 caps.

1st, 2nd or 3rd patterns, caps with soutache, no soutache, traces of soutache, salty, unworn, date stamped, no date, maker marked or not, sun bleached etc etc. The variations and prices vary so much it's difficult to know what's a fair market price or not.

I bring the topic up because although I've been lucky enough to find a few M40's in the past, I've always wanted a heavily bleached example but the prices for those have been too high for me so far. I really don't care what pattern and date the cap is and that got me thinking about the factors that determine the prices of these caps.

It's a fact that 1st pattern caps with soutache command very high prices.
I realise that these 1940/ early 41 caps were made for the very first initial formation sent to Africa and therefore the only "true" Deutsches Afrikakorps or DAK caps and we've seen some amazing ones that were clearly "there" judging by the salty condition of those examples. I totally get that these caps are highly desirable and therefore expensive.

What about the unworn 1st pattern caps? made for the DAK but either never got there or ended up in some supply depot in Tripoli or Bizerte. How does that make them "DAK" caps in the true sense of the word? There is also the question whether all 1st pattern caps were solely supplied to the DAK. Greece was invaded at about the same time that the 5th Light Division and elements from the 15th Panzer Division were cobbled together in Libya to form the DAK. Were any trop caps/uniforms supplied to units in Greece at this time? If they were, does that mean that all 1st pattern caps weren't necessarily intended for the DAK and therefore do we have to re-assess the current prices of these caps?

Food for thought.

So now let's discuss 2nd and 3rd pattern caps.
Both models "could" have and were used in Africa as well as other theatres of operations. Why then are they judged to be worth a fraction of the price of 1st models? Surely all these trop caps should be judged on a case by case basis?

What I'm asking is why would a 2nd or 3rd pattern cap with solid provenance of having been worn on the head of a soldier in Africa who then became a POW be worth so much less than an earlier made cap that can not be proven to have been there, only assumed to have been due to the date of manufacture?

I read this old thread today and Ralph Heinz makes some brilliant observations about what happened to Africa veterans and what happened to their uniforms.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=205970

It seems that the desirability and therefore price of these caps are based on some rather questionable foundations and maybe we should take a fresh look at the whole subject because Trop caps have become very very expensive even though there are quite a few on the market at the moment.

I'd really appreciate hearing your thoughts guys.

[Mark Gibson]

Hi Ben,

this is just my point of view but earlier caps, particularly with provenance, will always be much more desirable to collectors interested in the early battles of the Afrikakorps within Libya. Unfortunately we have seen an explosion on the prices being asked for many caps and seeing mint caps upwards of $10k - $15k and more, that clearly never would have been worn, does turn me off the hobby.
Unissued later caps just don't have the same desirability for Afrikakorps collectors who look for items that 'may' have been worn by the DAK. Even unworn examples of early dated caps by known early makers have a higher desirability amongst a number of collectors I know than a used later cap. Of course a later cap with North Africa provenance is also desirable to many collectors.

I'm not well at the moment so will add a bit more on my thoughts and experiences later.

Mark

[BenVK]

Get well soon mate!

[RGD51]

Ben, it's going to be a mess! From a baby boomer point of view the future of the militaria hobby, in general, is bleak. Does anyone believe that there are enough interested, informed, generations to take all this stuff? I'm lucky personally in that I have a son and grandson that like history and appreciate militaria but, sadly, the boomers have not passed a sufficient torch. Compound that with a very poor, dumbed down, education system here in the states which does not teach history....these kids now don't know what WWI or II was....ha, ha, the Civil War?....look what's happening right now! Guys that have spent thousands will not get it back and those that 'are interested' should have a field day down the road. DAK caps?..... Hey, what's a DAK cap? North Africa? Rommel who?.....world war what....? Is he on Facebook?

I could go on but won't! I hate long winded clap trap.

Robt.

[jacquesf]

Ben, it's going to be a mess! From a baby boomer point of view the future of the militaria hobby, in general, is bleak. Does anyone believe that there are enough interested, informed, generations to take all this stuff? I'm lucky personally in that I have a son and grandson that like history and appreciate militaria but, sadly, the boomers have not passed a sufficient torch. Compound that with a very poor, dumbed down, education system here in the states which does not teach history....these kids now don't know what WWI or II was....ha, ha, the Civil War?....look what's happening right now! Guys that have spent thousands will not get it back and those that 'are interested' should have a field day down the road. DAK caps?..... Hey, what's a DAK cap? North Africa? Rommel who?.....world war what....? Is he on Facebook?

I could go on but won't! I hate long winded clap trap.

Robt.

Robert you are spot on. I would love to own a Dak m40, but I am not paying stupid money for it. J

[BenVK]

That's exactly how I feel Jacques but I guess some other people's interpretation of "stupid money" is different to ours!

In view of that, I'd like to ask you guys what value you would place on this example because I really don't have a clue?

In terms of desirability, it's exactly what I've been looking for. Bleached and with unique embroidery on the side which I really love. But, it's not a 1st pattern "DAK" cap and has re-sewn insignia. No doubt it's a POW camp veteran.

[BenVK]

More

[RGD51]

What a rare puppy! A bleach out with a sweatband is amazing. POW caps are uberkuhl and these can be found sometimes here in the midwest....Arkansas and Missouri. Also down south. Thanks for posting.

Robt.

[Mark Gibson]

Ben,

I was offered this cap and it certainly is very appealing with the embroidery on the side. It wasn't for me due to it being a later cap but that being said it is a very nice cap and rather unique. This had to be a POW cap so very desrable in its own right. The reapplied insignia doesn't bother me but could be applied better than it has been.

I'm still blown away that you let your HEER with Luftwaffe eagle go because that was an absolute beauty.

Mark

[BenVK]

Mark, I regret letting that one go but there have been many caps that I've sold which I regret now but that's the only way I can afford to buy anything new.

I'm not rich and have to be extremely selective in what I buy. One bad judgement and I'm screwed.

[Mark Gibson]

Regarding the cap that you've shown, I personally believe the asking price to be too high considering the reapplied insignia. If it were untouched and the embroidery was stll completely intact, maybe, but as is I'd only really consider it if it were at half the asking price, even less. That's just my opinion and others may disagree.

Ben, I'm the same when it comes to funding the hobby. Some things have to make way for others and I have regretted parting with some items. In the end they are only objects with a bit of history that pass through our hands.

Mark

[BenVK]

I'd love to be able to keep everything that I've found because I really worked hard in finding them, a lot of it having never been in collectors or dealers hands before but it's just not been possible.

I totally admire and envy you guys who can collect and keep complete uniforms and display them on mannequins but I'll never be able to get there in my lifetime.

[NZMark]

Ben,
It takes a lifetime. I've been at this madness since I was fourteen years old. The wind may change the direction of the collecting but the passion remains the same.
I've told you what I'd pay for the above cap, very much on par with Mark G in that respect.
Desirability is in the eyes of the buyer. I've commented once before on another thread that I know one long time, very knowledgable collector who wouldn't look at early m40 caps, but I have a later m40 officer's upgrade from the Italian campaign that he desires specifically for that connection. I won't mention figures, but it matches soutached priced caps. No, it isn't for sale. So it's all relative. 'Worn' will always beat a cap that sat on a shelf while history was being made - for me that goes for all collectables - uniforms, field-gear etc. And this is a common baseline for tropical collectors - worn beats 'mint'.
I don't mind my collectables straying into the Italian theatre of Operations as our lads did the hard yards there and bought home some superb trophies, so 'later' produced caps in worn condition are of great interest for just that reason.
Again - relative (my Great Uncle drove an ambulance in North Africa and Italy) to my interests.
I don't collect for investment - I'm a working bloke with a family. I collect for the love of it. So like you, I have to choose carefully, such as when you offered me that LW used m40. Mate - that was a no brainer!
Take Care,
Mark
NZ

[ROBB]

Its got to be bleached tatty and complete without reapplied insignia like the one Scrooge found . And I have never paid much for anything so I don't see one coming to me soon , but you never know . Rob

[RGD51]

Very pertinent post #13 by NZMark. I never heard the term "investment grade militaria" till the 1980's. It was then that I realized that the hobby was changing quickly. Alot of us old guys got fired up in the 50's and we collected for the love of history and those artifacts which were brought back by folks we knew. Some of us really haven't changed much.

Robt.
PS.....Rob, that cap's a killer.