Panzer Headgear Collection-Be Careful

[LuckyStrike23]

Btw, I believe since the begining that this wrap IS indeed a fake, but this was just not the point here.

derka

This is also my feeling. I have seen 2 privately taylored wraps from very different sources that i consider original. Both are interestingly very similar and differ form the StuG wrap. Such a wrap is seldom seen - even the panzer general wraps in Panzermuseum Munster (Eberbach and Guderian) are issued examples.

[Leroy]

I certainly wasn't suggesting that a a real period tag makes the wrap real, instead just trying to "nail down" one aspect of this. For whatever it's worth, I, too, do not have a good feeling about this wrap. I would also like to see close-ups of the insignia, which in the photos we have seen don't "look" quite right.

I think every piece of information, no matter how minor, is important to accumulate.

[derka]

Well Leroy,
If the actual seller of those pz items wishes to discuss them and is ready to open threads in that purpose, in appropriate forums clothes and headgeaer, and to eventualy furnish close wiews pics wich would be requested, then such a behaviour would be according is own words :
"As a reputable dealer I have to stand behind my product [...] my reputation is the most important thing in this entire debacle, and I intend to safeguard it".

Otherwise, we'll have to discuss only with avaible pics...

Lucky, despite its construction visible on those pics, this wrap is not a real issued wrap, some details kill it and may not be entirely exposed here.

Let's come back to this section gentlemen, what are your opinions abouts grommets pics i put above ?
Yes, no, maybe...

[Leroy]

Lucky, despite its construction visible on those pics, this wrap is not a real issued wrap, some details kill it and may not be entirely exposed here.

Let's come back to this section gentlemen, what are your opinions abouts grommets pics i put above ?
Yes, no, maybe...

Sorry to interrupt the grommet question - it's just that no one appears to be commenting at all in the other thread. As for additional photos, I think the dealer is more concerned with other things.

After the grommet issue is discussed, please come back and talk about the "details" you see, or know about, which kill the wrap.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Well i have said I have never encountered a original black one by CW. I own some examples and I have a picture archiv with appr. 50 original panzer M34, but none of this maker (by the way CW M34 are rare birds in general - except of the tropical caps).

Perhaps they did not produce black ones because there was no panzer garrisson within a distance of several hundred kilomenters around Hamburg (as far as i know). Perhaps they did and I have just not seen one - who knows

Thanks for the additional info. Really like your CW cap, If you have not seen one, then they are scarce indeed. This example included being bad. Its possible that CW did not make the PZ M34 only the tropical version. I have seen tropical CW overseas caps dated Feb '41 through 'early 43 & 1940 -42 dated tropenhelms. So perhaps CW concentrated on tropical headgear.....besides all those visors, till the massive Allied bombing of Hamburg.

But back to derka's point everyone, what about those grommets ?

[LuckyStrike23]

But back to derka's point everyone, what about those grommets ?

Well - for me - I have never ever seen exactly this kind of "flat" grommets on a original M34.

Btw here are more pics of the CW panzer side cap posted in 2008 - I saved them under "fakes" :

[derka]

Well - for me - I have never ever seen exactly this kind of "flat" grommets on a original M34.

Btw here are more pics of the CW panzer side cap posted in 2008 - I saved them under "fakes" :

The grommets with "flat" washers shown in #99 are, imo, the same kind than those used on the CW black sidecap shown in # 97.
However, those grommets of #99 are not used on a CW sidecap.
So either diferent period manufacturers used those grommets concurrently with other "classical" kinds of grommets, like with the feldgrau M34 shown above in #92 (wich is without any doubt original imo), or fakers used those "flat washers "grommets for different sidecaps with different manufacures stamps.

And LuckyStrike, for the other 2008 CW black sidecap with different grommets you kindly offered additional pics, i would save your pics in "fakes" files too.

[LuckyStrike23]

The grommets with "flat" washers shown in #99 are, imo, the same kind than those used on the CW black sidecap shown in # 97.
However, those grommets of #99 are not used on a CW sidecap.

It seems so. Where did you found the pics of the grommtes in post 99?

[Tim O'Keefe]

So either diferent period manufacturers used those grommets concurrently with other "classical" kinds of grommets, like with the feldgrau M34 shown above in #92 (wich is without any doubt original imo), or fakers used those "flat washers "grommets for different sidecaps with different manufacures stamps.

Agree the later, its always the grommets isn't it....

And LuckyStrike, for the other 2008 CW black sidecap with different grommets you kindly offered additional pics, i would save your pics in "fakes" files too.

& Lucky thanks for another look and that eagle application really disturbs me for a CW.

[Leroy]

Very interesting and useful discussion.

Is this a correct summary of what is being said?:

1.) CW is not known to have made black panzer caps
2.) The black panzer cap posted from CW uses different grommets from those normally used in 'accepted' other CW caps (although Chris has indicated that these same grommets are used in other period caps)
3.) The way the eagle is sewn on the black panzer cap marked to CW differs from the way the eagle is sewn on normally seen CW caps
4.) The CW stamp used in the black panzer caps is different from the CW stamps normally seen?

(Sorry, I'm still a bit confused by #4)

[derka]

the "flat washers" grommets in #99 are used in a feldgrau M34 sidecap, "Franz Ritter" stamped but almost faded.



Here are other exemples of this kind of grommets on EM sidecaps only, not officers private purchase :

#4

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ly+sprengpfeil

# 9

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...panzer+sidecap

And here is anaother exemple of a feldgrau M34 sidecap made by CWw, using "classical" grommets







Otherwise, this thread is interesting comparing with some sidecaps of the lot :

http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthrea...panzer+sidecap

I found those ones in my files too, ie already shown here :

[LuckyStrike23]

I dont like the black cap shown in the 2005 thread.

The Franz Ritter looks convincing although I have no other piece made by this maker in my archiv.

[Nick Komiya]

I am comfortable with the general's Schiffchen above and believe it to be the work of Averbeck & Bröskamp. I have an identical one from a Pz uniform set belonging to general Hermann von Hülsen of the 21st Pz Div. This may actually be part of the second Pz uniform set that was auctioned off at the same time back in 1987. I have a set of Schiffchen, wrapper and pants and a friend of mine in Seattle has got the custom-tailored DAK tunic, pants and M40 cap from that auction. There were two identical wrapper sets in the auction, and the one I didn't get came with British capture papers. Richard was telling me he thought he may have located that one, but it was never confirmed, as the seller didn't have much memory of where he got it, etc.

[derka]

http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthrea...fficer+sidecap

#10 : the black pz off sidecap and the black pz EM sidecap with a thin pink soutache have same provinance.

[Glenn McInnes]

http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthrea...fficer+sidecap

#10 : the black pz off sidecap and the black pz EM sidecap have same provinance.

I don't know why but for some reason I can't see any photos in several links posted in this thread...Even if I have to sign in again it just takes me to a page that no longer exists,very odd.






Glenn