Announcement

**JasonA** · 01-08-2011, 07:26 PM

Now that we're back on topic here, I still have issues with this cap due to the inferior eagle (think it's been replaced) and the crown piping sewing (shouldn't be all bunched up like that).

There's just a couple of funky things going on with this cap that make me uneasy. It may very well have been hastily produced post-war.

J-

**BenVK** · 01-08-2011, 07:41 PM

J, look at the overall shape as well in the first lot of photos and compare it to a known authentic erel in your collection. To became a Mutzenmacher-Meister took maybe 10 years, maybe longer? If you spent that long studying your craft, would you have let such a misaligned, unshapely and badly sewn cap out of your factory?

The insignia and the way it's sewn is a bit of red herring as far as I'm concerned. For all I know, Lubstein made a huge batch of caps and was awaiting the insignia which being bullion, takes a lot of time. Some other contractor might have sewn then on. It makes no difference though. The cap and only the cap's construction is what we're talking about here.

Hopefuly, NTZ will chime in here because he's studied Lubstein more than I.

**Jos L C** · 01-08-2011, 08:08 PM

Ben, well, I've seen quite a few Erels that were dated '43, think it was a very busy year, the visor might be a wrong size, too small for this cap, so we see different measurements etc ..?!
I can imagine the pressure those days, not good for the product, but I think like with clothes, we start to see mistakes and using all material they could.., no time for trimming a eagle etc..
Like pilot badges, some are hand finished pieces of jewelery, others from the same maker are un-finished in many ways.
Can't prove, but other things are good when I see the cap, not every cap is the same, especially when time gets precious ..

Jos.

**Jos L C** · 01-08-2011, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by JasonA View Post

Now that we're back on topic here, I still have issues with this cap due to the inferior eagle (think it's been replaced) and the crown piping sewing (shouldn't be all bunched up like that).

There's just a couple of funky things going on with this cap that make me uneasy. It may very well have been hastily produced post-war.

J-

Inferior eagle ?
Wish I had it ..

Jos.

**solo** · 01-08-2011, 08:16 PM

I still remani in my point ,it's a resewn eagle,when I don't know but resewn.Why the man or weman should use black thread for fix the wreat and a white for the eagle.All the erel's I've seen have the insigna sewn with the same thread.
Carlo

**Jos L C** · 01-08-2011, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by solo View Post

I still remani in my point ,it's a resewn eagle,when I don't know but resewn.Why the man or weman should use black thread for fix the wreat and a white for the eagle.All the erel's I've seen have the insigna sewn with the same thread.
Carlo

All flight jackets should be sewn with blue thread, untill I saw one that was done with yellow and green.., it's something like running out of material sometimes, then you've to improvise..
I think that a fake EREL wouldn't look like this, if so, show me a known one, I would like to learn if they exist.
I would expect a bogus EREL eagle and kockade on a fake cap too, if not on this one, then on the 2nd..

Jos.

**BenVK** · 01-08-2011, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by Jos Le Conté View Post

Ben, well, I've seen quite a few Erels that were dated '43, think it was a very busy year, the visor might be a wrong size, too small for this cap, so we see different measurements etc ..?!

Peaks/ visors/ shirms or what ever you call them were all the same size, give or take a few mm..

It's another myth that they were made in totaly different sizes to suit the size of cap.

**JasonA** · 01-08-2011, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by BenVK View Post

J, look at the overall shape as well in the first lot of photos and compare it to a known authentic erel in your collection. To became a Mutzenmacher-Meister took maybe 10 years, maybe longer? If you spent that long studying your craft, would you have let such a misaligned, unshapely and badly sewn cap out of your factory?

That was my point with the crown piping.

**JasonA** · 01-08-2011, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by Jos Le Conté View Post

Inferior eagle ?
Wish I had it ...

Sorry, Jos. Let me be more specific...which I should have been initially.

Eagle is not inferior, but the trim of the wool behind it, in my opinion, is. It again goes back to all the points mentioned of master cap makers in this thread. Just sloppy work that I'm surprised slipped out.

But that goes back to my point earlier. There were upgrades one could purchase when buying caps like these. I would think officers could buy their own bullion eagles and have the tailor include them with the cap. I've seen too many bullion variations to make me think otherwise.

Any thoughts on this?

J-

**Jos L C** · 01-08-2011, 08:47 PM

would you have let such a misaligned, unshapely and badly sewn cap out of your factory?

, I know, but when I look at all my pilot pics, I see the worst of the worst, so bad I sometimes think their caps are fake, but then I realize the pics are real ..

Jos.

**Jos L C** · 01-08-2011, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by JasonA View Post

Sorry, Jos. Let me be more specific...which I should have been initially.

Eagle is not inferior, but the trim of the wool behind it, in my opinion, is. It again goes back to all the points mentioned of master cap makers in this thread. Just sloppy work that I'm surprised slipped out.

But that goes back to my point earlier. There were upgrades one could purchase when buying caps like these. I would think officers could buy their own bullion eagles and have the tailor include them with the cap. I've seen too many bullion variations to make me think otherwise.

Any thoughts on this?

J-

Yes, I think it was all a matter of purchasing and choice etc..
Some bullion eagles are like Rolex, while others are doomed to the tackle box, while they're real ..
Like this discussion, it's touch thinking all the time, imagination compared with knowledge etc, etc..
Small details, could it be, could it be not etc..
Sloppy real jobs, sloppy post war ..., head breakers ..
This kind of cap from same year also comes with metal insignia, matter of money, matter of choice ?!

Jos.

**BenVK** · 01-08-2011, 08:57 PM

Any period pics of the internal stitching of those caps Jos?

Please guys, it's like judging the beauty of a supermodel by just looking at her nose, which could has been applied later if you know what I mean!

**BenVK** · 01-08-2011, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by JasonA View Post

That was my point with the crown piping.

I learnt a good word this week from my eye surgeon. When he looked at the results of my previous surgery he said about the quality and skill that it was "unremarkable".

I think the piping on this cap is also unremarkable.

**Jos L C** · 01-08-2011, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by BenVK View Post

Any period pics of the internal stitching of those caps Jos?

Yes, but the guy is standing 80 yards away from the camera ..

I wish I had period pics of inside caps, but most are of inside planes ..

It's hard to find era info, except from sometimes good pics from the outside of caps .., but there were many caps of which we've seen a few, knowledge has been built, but there's still a lot we can't put our finger on, hence these discussions, but on the other hand that's the nice thing in the hobby IMO.
Different thoughts, different views, sometimes leading to the right answer.

Jos.

**Jos L C** · 01-08-2011, 09:21 PM

Ben, are you saying that a big head 60 had the same visor as a size 53 ?

Did they cut it for the 53, if not the visor would stand like a football, no ?

Just curious..

Jos.

Announcement

lufwaffw officer cap

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread