SS M43 Panzer Cap

[ebony]

Ii

[90th Light]

That's all I have got time for now but may be some other members have some interesting HBT linings to post. I have certainly got a couple more to show esp. one very weird cap with an interesting tan colored example so I will post that too when I lay my hands on it. Also from Italy 1945.

Look forward to what others might post because I really feel that a lot of these M43's have been written off in a series of wide sweeping statements made some time in the 1990's and may be we all need to go back and revist the collector myths which have built up around them,

Chris

[piw]

The uniform sleeve with HBT lining is certainly interesting - someone, somewhere must have an SS M43 Cap with HBT lining (either green or black and with late war trap) which has unquestionable provenance back to a pick up at the wars end. Its not the holy grail after all ! Or is it?

[RobertE]

Just to throw another one of these on the fire - this is another of the very thin fine wool caps identical to the Dachau wool, and a HBT liner. No great providence, other than it was a veteran estate with nothing but unissued Dachau insignia and some minor LW ground insignia, also unissued. It cost very little to buy the cap, as the insignia was inside of it and it was a package deal.

I would advocate we continue to examine some of the collector truisms that may not be so true. I would add that this is a discussion, not a request for judgement to be passed.

Discussion example: I have this HBT in a "factory" made M43 configuration with a fake eagle machine attached, thus the liner went into it after the war. Here is it."

Judgement example: I would not own this.

What I suspect is that most of the collectors doing the dismissing don't have any real idea of why they are condemning a piece - it just doesn't look like any they've seen. Let's try to do some meaningful work here, and stop shooting advocates for discussion.

regards, Robert

[RobertE]

Nothing exceptional, but probably real.

[Lenny W]

Now not only do the images A to E which ebony has posted show the HBT lining in that pale color like we see on the black Panzer SS M43 which I posted in post number 233 but it also shows the Italian type wool which we see used on the caps shown in posts number 232 and 234 plus the same type of stitching

and// there is always an "and", we have a clear connection to SS forces in the north of Italy at that time.

Now that got me thinking about an SS M43 which member Robert Coutts posted and this was instantly dismised without so much as a second thought as being reproduction because of the strange HBT used in that example. In fact some even laughed and joked about it but I am not so sure that we should not in fact be making a serious study of all these HBT's

Any way I have asked ebony to also post a couple of shots of Roberts HBT lining and you can see what I mean,

Chris

imo robert c's cap is an obvious fake and the sleeve cut off as well ,MODERN hbt material most likely a cut off sleeve from a reenactors jacket ,no comment on the insignias attached to it im not versed on cufftitles

[Mike Davis]

imo robert c's cap is an obvious fake and the sleeve cut off as well ,MODERN hbt material most likely a cut off sleeve from a reenactors jacket ,no comment on the insignias attached to it im not versed on cufftitles

Agreed sleeve section not original, sleeveband looks OK though.

[Francesco]

May be this one can be interesting !? http://www.ssvtmilitaria.com/H2001%2...20M43%20Em.htm

[90th Light]

Agreed sleeve section not original, sleeveband looks OK though.

Mike that sleeve was taken by a member of the 22 Battalion NZEF for intelligence at the time as to who they were up against around Trieste in May 1945. I first saw it over 30 years ago and it came from my very good friend Alvin Shaw who instructed that it was to be left it to me after he died of cancer.

To have a collector say that it is just cut off a reinactment tunic is insulting is an understatement.

Lets put it another way, however, may be collectors in the USA do not have as many items from their veterans from that part of the war ?

and as such may be the HBT has not been as encountered as often.

Tell me please how many members of the 7th SS Division, 24th SS Division and the 29th (1st Italian) SS Division surrendered to American forces ? and thus how much experience have US collectors had with the uniform items from those units ?

Also look at the sleeve you will see quite clearly the wool pile remaining where the eagle has been but this was taken off and trophied by another member of 22 Battalion. I contacted as many members of this unit as I could to see what they might have and was lucky enough to pick up a couple of sleeve eagles so I may be I have even got it back.

You can also see the wear to the wool around the cuff title and the rank badge which have been on there for a very long time before May 1945. Such wear is very hard if not impossible to reproduce.

I swear 100% on the bible and hope God strikes me dead if I am wrong that sleeve is 101% original and of pre May 1945 and I can not express this any stronger,

Chris

[B. N. Singer]

Mike...I swear 100% on the bible and hope God strikes me dead if I am wrong that sleeve is 101% original and of pre May 1945 and I can not express this any stronger,

Chris

Oh my, tempting the wrath of the Lord!

B. N. Singer

[B. N. Singer]

Mike that sleeve was taken by a member of the 22 Battalion NZEF for intelligence at the time as to who they were up against around Trieste in May 1945. I first saw it over 30 years ago and it came from my very good friend Alvin Shaw who instructed that it was to be left it to me after he died of cancer.

To have a collector say that it is just cut off a reinactment tunic is insulting is an understatement.

Lets put it another way, however, may be collectors in the USA do not have as many items from their veterans from that part of the war ?

and as such may be the HBT has not been as encountered as often.

Tell me please how many members of the 7th SS Division, 24th SS Division and the 29th (1st Italian) SS Division surrendered to American forces ? and thus how much experience have US collectors had with the uniform items from those units ?

Also look at the sleeve you will see quite clearly the wool pile remaining where the eagle has been but this was taken off and trophied by another member of 22 Battalion. I contacted as many members of this unit as I could to see what they might have and was lucky enough to pick up a couple of sleeve eagles so I may be I have even got it back.

You can also see the wear to the wool around the cuff title and the rank badge which have been on there for a very long time before May 1945. Such wear is very hard if not impossible to reproduce.

I swear 100% on the bible and hope God strikes me dead if I am wrong that sleeve is 101% original and of pre May 1945 and I can not express this any stronger,

Chris

[90th Light]

Oh my, tempting the wrath of the Lord!

B. N. Singer

And something that should never be taken lightly Mr Singer so please do not try and make a weak joke out of his name.

What would be more helpful is if you would address the question in the post which you are so happy to quote

How much stuff have you ever handled in your time as a collector which was veteran brought and taken from members of the 7th SS, 24th SS or 29th SS Divisions ?

Chris

[B. N. Singer]

And something that should never be taken lightly Mr Singer so please do not try and make a weak joke out of his name...

I was kinda hopping the joke was rather strong actually.

As befitting the sleeve; your hats look better.

B. N. Singer

[90th Light]

I was kinda hopping the joke was rather strong actually.

As befitting the sleeve; your hats look better.

B. N. Singer

Thank you for the reply Mr Singer because it confirms what we suspected and I am not referring to the sleeve because that is beyond doubt,

Chris

p.s. so nothing what so ever from the 7th SS, 24th SS or 29th SS ?

[NZMark]

By dismissing Chris' veteran sourced items you are basically calling him a liar.
Please clarify this point?? A moderator commented that snide remarks are uncalled for. I also assume childish 'smiley' postings come in under the same umbrella?
Far too many egos are taking over factual commenting on this thread.
Mark.