SS M43 Panzer Cap

[Scott Joseph]

Who per chance was selling the SS Pz. Offz. M43 at the show?

[Lenny W]

how about some pics of those vet aquired caps there Chris

[B. N. Singer]

...and the source of my frustration, I have a black Panzer example which I can trace back to 1971 plus a field grey example brought back by a New Zealand soldier in 1945 from Austria. Both have HBT linings and were made before May 1945...What concerns me is the "real" history being denied or being so quickly declared reproduction and then I am condemned for defending a fake when mine are not fake...

Chris

Here is a case of someone who goes on with endless tedium about what he has seen, what he knows and what he owns. All the while professing to be interested in learning and education for the good of the hobby.

One would think there would certainly be No hesitation to tender his photographic support, which would be without a doubt, germane to this thread.

We are ALL interested in learning and willing to keep an open mind if/when documented proof is offered.

B. N. Singer

[90th Light]

Here is a case of someone who goes on with endless tedium about what he has seen, what he knows and what he owns. All the while professing to be interested in learning and education for the good of the hobby.

One would think there would certainly be No hesitation to tender his photographic support, which would be without a doubt, germane to this thread.

We are ALL interested in learning and willing to keep an open mind if/when documented proof is offered.

B. N. Singer

Not at all Mr Singer but I am only one voice against an entrenched view point of a certain dominating group of collectors. Just a candle of light about this matter in the dark of night but more candles are starting to light up and some are even lanterns. Who knows may be we will get electric lighting on this one yet but the question is how long will it take because not all collectors agree on the current status quo.

I have every intention of posting my caps when I am good and ready to and not before. At the moment I have had several collectors contact me and offer their experience, insights and caps from their collections. This in itself has been interesting and expanded what was known. I am now watching/ waiting to see who else will come forward and thank you for bringing the thread to the top again with your input. Is it not an ill wind that blows no good and no publicity is bad publicity.

I am however not interested in is getting into battles of personality, ego stroking or character assassination. Too many threads have disintegrated into that and I can not help but feel sad when I think of some of the members who no longer post or contribute in any way to this forum because of such deterioration in what has or has not been said.

The issue remains quite clear that the Germans produced SS M43 caps with a trap and HBT lining in both field grey and panzer black before the war's end. The Dachau examples was not the only model ever made with those manufactured features before May 1945. To believe "Dachau only" would be very narrow to say the least,

Chris

[B. N. Singer]

Not at all Mr Singer but I am only one voice against a very strong and dominating group of collectors. Just a candle of light about this matter in the dark of night.

I have every intention of posting my caps when I am good and ready to and not before. At the moment I have had several collectors contact me and offer their experience, insights and caps from their collections. This in itself has been interesting and expanded what was known. I am now watching/ waiting to see who else will come forward and thank you for bringing the thread to the top again with your input. Is it not an ill wind that blows no good ?

I am however not interested in is getting into battles of personality, ego stroking or character assassination. Too many threads have disintegrated into that and I can not help but feel sad when I think of some of the members who no longer post or contribute in any way to this forum because of such deterioration in what has or has not been said.

The question remains quite clear that the Germans produced SS M43 caps with a trap and HBT lining in both field grey and panzer black before the war's end. The Dachau examples was not the only model ever made with those manufactured features before May 1945. To believe "Dachau only" would be very narrow to say the least,

Chris

Sir, you are nothing more than argumentum ad nauseam and are doing an injustice. You have ZERO vested in this thread other than the endless time you have wasted posting your tedious comments; while the poor owner of the hat, who initiated this thread, sits there hanging on hope upon hope of his hat being Original. When he should have had it packed up and sent back LONG ago to make an attempt at getting a refund. Too bad it was not you in his place, mired with all your foolishness!
B. N. Singer

[BenVK]

I'm not taking sides here but I do find it ironic that two guys from opposing viewpoints that are always disagreeing with each other are so similar in one fundamental fact.

Neither of you have ever posted photos of anything that you own to validate your claims. It's never happened, ever!

It's been going on for years now. Frankly, although I respect the both of you in different ways, it's just ridiculous because as Bryon just said, "One would think there would certainly be No hesitation to tender his photographic support, which would be without a doubt, germane to this thread"

Well, if that's true, just do it! That goes for the both of you!

[B. N. Singer]

I'm not taking sides here but I do find it ironic that two guys from opposing viewpoints that are always disagreeing with each other are so similar in one fundamental fact.

Neither of you have ever posted photos of anything that you own to validate your claims. It's never happened, ever!

It's been going on for years now. Frankly, although I respect the both of you in different ways, it's just ridiculous because as Bryon just said, "One would think there would certainly be No hesitation to tender his photographic support, which would be without a doubt, germane to this thread"

Well, if that's true, just do it! That goes for the both of you!

Sir, you are completely in error; allow me set you straight. My comments and participation in this thread are and have been directed specifically at the hat(s) that have been posted here and NOT about any generality concerning manufacture (linings/insignia).
B. N. Singer

[BenVK]

Sir, you are completely in error; allow me set you straight.

No sorry Bryon, you do not set me straight.

I've been very polite to both you and Chris in private messages but frankly Ive never seen any photographic evidence of anything you both claim to have seen or owned or handled.

If you both think you are so correct in your judgement, post some photos of the items that you think are genuine in your collections to let the rest of us judge whether we think you know what you are talking about or not.

After all, the rest of us have posted photos in the past, numerous times, but not you two.

[90th Light]

Sir, you are nothing more than argumentum ad nauseam and are doing an injustice. You have ZERO vested in this thread other than the endless time you have wasted posting your tedious comments; while the poor owner of the hat, who initiated this thread, sits there hanging on hope upon hope of his hat being Original. When he should have had it packed up and sent back LONG ago to make an attempt at getting a refund. Too bad it was not you in his place, mired with all your foolishness!
B. N. Singer

While the same could also be said of you Mr Singer

because at the end of the day you have offered no facts either as to why the cap was a reproduction. There is not one dealer in the world who would have to take the cap which started this back on the basis of

"I could entertain doubts"

And you too have zero vested in all the many threads that you have given the kiss of death to with out a second thought about what is the impact of your comment,

Chris

[B. N. Singer]

No sorry Bryon, you do not set me straight.

I've been very polite to both you and Chris in private messages but frankly Ive never seen any photographic evidence of anything you both claim to have seen or owned or handled.

If you both think you are so correct in your judgement, post some photos of the items that you think are genuine in your collections to let the rest of us judge whether we think you know what you are talking about or not.

After all, the rest of us have posted photos in the past, numerous times, but not you two.

Well then Sir, I am quite content to have you and anyone else think that I do Not know what I am talking about.
And let me again set you straight, I have had numerous items from my collection shown on the WAF. However, I do not care to have my name associated with them .
B. N. Singer

[BenVK]

Bryon, just let the guard down for a minute will you?

All the public "sirs" and "I could entertain doubts" wears a bit thin after all these years.

You have so much to teach us, just be more generous, please!

[Gene]

I'd like to see Chris' vet acquired caps

[Bobbe]

Had the great pleasure of looking at an authentic SS officer's M43 cap at the Max. It was a "one looker" if there can be such a thing regarding SS caps, and it had no construction details in common with the caps on this thread.

Have seen Italian produced Heer and Luftwaffe M43 caps and their construction, and wool, differs as well.

John was it on sale at Max? Was a dealer the owner?

Regards.
Roberto

[Tim O'Keefe]

Dear Mr Singer & 90th Light

You both are an asset to this Forum for different reasons. Agree with Ben also.
I do remember You both posting a few pics of some of your items. Mr Singer via the Mods & 90th Light via his good friend Ebony...

I realize You both are on opposite ends of the collecting spectrum. One likes only safe items that are one-look pieces and the other is willing to take chances on unusual or never seen items. I & others have tried to learn from both of You.
Thats what makes collecting tr items so interesting. No one has seen that many items from the period, perhaps a few hundred, maybe a thousand from the most experienced collectors, But there are millions of pieces in some cases.

How many black M43's were made ? Maybe close to a million ? I know nothing of them myself yet try to learn as much as i can about them.

Chris, i too would like to see the caps You own, but same is true of Bryon, though not in this case as he is not stating he has any different examples than the Dachau version which everyone accepts, though there must be others that are good too....

Discussion is good but photographic evidence is better.

This reminds me of the denial of the CW tropical M40 which some of the Forum insist does not exist just cause they have not seen one (yet).

Perhaps i have said too much already without saying anything...carry on.

[B. N. Singer]

Dear Mr Singer & 90th Light

You both are an asset to this Forum for different reasons. Agree with Ben also.
I do remember You both posting a few pics of some of your items. Mr Singer via the Mods & 90th Light via his good friend Ebony...

I realize You both are on opposite ends of the collecting spectrum. One likes only safe items that are one-look pieces and the other is willing to take chances on unusual or never seen items. I & others have tried to learn from both of You.
Thats what makes collecting tr items so interesting. No one has seen that many items from the period, perhaps a few hundred, maybe a thousand from the most experienced collectors, But there are millions of pieces in some cases.

How many black M43's were made ? Maybe close to a million ? I know nothing of them myself yet try to learn as much as i can about them.

Chris, i too would like to see the caps You own, but same is true of Bryon, though not in this case as he is not stating he has any different examples than the Dachau version which everyone accepts, though there must be others that are good too....

Discussion is good but photographic evidence is better.

This reminds me of the denial of the CW tropical M40 which some of the Forum insist does not exist just cause they have not seen one (yet).

Perhaps i have said too much already without saying anything...carry on.

Tim,
Thank you for your post.
I will answer you in a way that some will find lacking.

I do not own an example of a black SS Pz M43 hat (other that the “Dachau” variety) with a trapezoid insignia or HBT lining. Further more to my best recollection I do not remember ever having seen one with those specific features that I was comfortable with.

Does that mean that they could not have been produced, of course not; as you state, there were thousands of hats manufactured and only a small fraction likely survived.

You are correct also when assessing my “collecting mantra” be SAFE rather than SORRY (especially in today’s world). Now if others wish to flail around endlessly going on and on about their why, if, perhaps, and just maybes that’s OK; it is s up to others to wade through such chafe.

Assertions have been made about hats existing that are thought to have relevance to this thread. Then instead of all the verbose posting and “all in good time my pretties”, just take some pictures. EVERYONE wants to learn IF they are serious collectors.

Sadly, all the additional pictures aside, I would not be comfortable in owning the hat that was the original subject of this thread (and if you take the time to read through it, I am Not singular in that feeling).

My Best regards to you Tim,
Bryon