Panzer cap how accurate is burn test?

[Fred Green]

Eagle

Kenny,

The eagle that is on the cap that you have posted is a reproduction in my opinion! It is fake.

Fred Green

[kenny andrew]

Hi Fred, here is the picture from page 8 of Wades Book I hope he does'nt mind me posting it here.

Is this not the same eagle?

[JaimeH]

I don't know anything about burn tests, but the one above looks like it's 65 years old, your's doesn't. Sorry!

[kenny andrew]

Hi Jamie, as I said before I'm not trying to convince myself that this cap is original I am open to opinions as I really can't make my mind up on it on my own and will use the feedback I recieve to make a decision.

As far as I can see the two problems with the cap is one the synthetic thread and two as you point out the new condition of the cap.Other than that going by the information available so far I see no problems with the insignia,liner,gromits maker. However if these items can be shown to be wrong I would be more than happy as it will make my decision easier.

As for the condition of the cap this could just be down to the fact that it has never been issued.

[Fred Green]

Eagle

Kenny,

I don't care for that eagle either! It does not look good.

Fred Green

[kenny andrew]

Hi Fred, OK well thats a fair comment as that is the eagle I presumed was original and have based my comments on. This is now getting complicated, what is you don't like about the eagle ?it certainly looks OK to me.

[Fred Green]

eagle

Kenny,

I did a search on the Wehrmacht uniforms and insignia forum and this style of eagle was discussed in depth. They even referred to the same hat in Wade's book! It was deemed a fake by the masses. Check out these threads:
dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84210

and
dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77241

It is the shape of the eagle,legs and head, not to mention a few other things. This same eagle is referenced in Angolia's book UNIFORMS AND TRADITIONS OF THE GERMAN ARMY VOLII as a good eagle but it is not.Not everything we see in the books are real.

If the above threads do not work do a search in the uniforms forum under panzer cap eagle. I hope this helps.

Fred Green

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Tony is right.

Nylon (Called Perlon in Germany) was invented and in use by the late 30s. It's use in 3rd Reich garmets was very very limited if ever as a basic sewing thread. Nylon will melt into a hard plastic like shiney end when burned...

Note: Many women would do favours for GI's for a pair of nylons during the war and in its immediate aftermath no doubt.

Nothing to do with this thread, but an interesting point to mention after watching We'll meet again, again.

[Mike Davis]

As for the eagle it is quite hard to see on the scan but to me it does look the exact same as the one pictured on page 8 of Wade's book Army Panzer Uniforms.If it is the same as the one in Wades book then I would be inclined to think it is OK.

A dangerous assumption in my view....

[B. N. Singer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenny andrew
"As for the eagle it is quite hard to see on the scan but to me it does look the exact same as the one pictured on page 8 of Wade's book Army Panzer Uniforms.If it is the same as the one in Wades book then I would be inclined to think it is OK." [/QUOTE]

A dangerous assumption in my view....

Careful there Mr. Davis!!!

B. N. Singer

[TONY Q.W.]

...

[Mike Davis]

Quote:

Careful there Mr. Davis!!!

B. N. Singer

I'm told this author's new book is better; haven't seen it yet but am looking forward to getting a copy.

[kenny andrew]

Hi Tony,

Yes thats how I read that thread.The Second eagle is apparently original but the others are copies of that pattern of eagle (I think the others are OK too apart from the obvious $10 ones).

That pattern of eagle is same as the one on the cap I posted.It is symetrical, so I still see no problems with this style of eagle.

I also think although its hard to make out in the photo that the eagle on Wades cap is OK too.The rest of the cap certainly looks OK to me.

[90th Light]

Hello to all, sadly I have been a bit busy to post lately so I am doing some catching up. This is a good thread and an interesting debate about these panzer cap eagles with the bump on the back of their head

1/ are they good or are they bad ?

2/ are there real panzer eagles in this shape and are there also excellent copies of originals in a range of services WH KM DAK officer etc ?

3/ is the Panzer M40 cap on page 8 of Wade Krawcsyks "Army Panzer Uniforms", Europa 1999 (I say M40 because there was no black M34 until 1940 or may-be 1939) a real cap with a real eagle ?

4/ did Angolia also get it wrong in his book "Uniforms and Traditions of the German Army" Bender

5/ these Panzer eagles have been around for a long time and turn up on some interesting Panzer caps in known collections.

These five questions have been raised over time on this forum to good effect.
I can not give you a certain answer but I have to admit that I am feeling very un-easy with these bump-head panzer eagles and some of the points raised in these threads by serious collectors.

When I get a chance I will try and find out what Wade now thinks of the cap on page 8 of his book with the benefit of hind-sight since the book was published.

I know he will no longer respond to this forum.

His latest book "The Panzer Soldier", Crowood Press 2006 is excellent however and I recommend it to all with an interest in the Panzerwaffe. He put on lot of work into it and making sure it was a book all could used as a good reference.

Regards, Chris

[kenny andrew]

Hi Chris,

yes that sounds very constructive.It may also be a good idea to ask Wade the background and source of his cap. I'm always a bit alarmed when items are condemned when they appear not to be known text book examples.From a collectors point of view its always advisable to go for textbook examples however I think sometimes in the bigger picture good items are sometimes over looked using this theory which is a shame not only for the collector but for the preservation of history.