Naval Officer's Peaked Caps

[Alf]

Hi Guys

I am considering starting a Third Reich Naval collection. I believe there are many fakes of the Naval Officer's peaked caps/uniforms e.g. other countries Naval Caps/uniforms having German insignia sewn on etc

Does anyone have any information or could recommend a good reference work with good photographic illustrations that will assist me in sorting the good from the bad ?

Any assistance will be appreciated !

Best regards

Alf

[Perry Floyd]

Gordon Williamson may be able to help. If I'm not mistaken he's a collector of Kriegsmarine visors...

[grnberet57]

If you have a KM question ask Bill Stump, he's been collecting that stuff for years, and he actually met with the last Fuhrer and Grand Admrial of the Kreigsmarine Donitz back in the 60s. He'll be able to help.

Kevin

[Michel]

Hello Alf,
The kriegsmarine is a particularly interesting but very difficult topic, it is absolutely necessary to consult phographies of time, and to document you on the uniforms of Bundesmarine in order to avoid the traps of the forgers.
Finally there is Bender Books " Die Kriegsmarine " the photographs are of poor quality but they contain essential information.
Good courage...
Michel

[W. C. Stump]

Alf:

I have a U-boat Officer's blue visor that I could send you information about, but you have a blocked email. I could have my friend Kevin post a scan of it if you wish.

W. C. Stump

[Alf]

Hi Guys

Thanks very much for the advice and guidance !

Bill, I have unblocked my e mail so please send the pics through. Thanks

Stay well

Alf

[mgidhagen]

Hi Alf,
Welcome to the Community! I would like to recommend a book, or actually two, providing excellent reference pics of German headgear:
"German Headgear in World War II: Army/Luftwaffe/Kriegsmarine - A Photographic Study of German Hats and Helmets" by Pat Moran & Jon A. Maguire, and the same writers are also responsible for "German Headgear in World War II: SS/NSDAP/Police/Civilian/Misc. - A Photographic Study of German Hats and Helmets". They are not cheap (about $75.00 each), but well worth it!!
Happy Collecting!
/Mike

[W. C. Stump]

Alf:

Sorry, but your email address is still blocked.

W. C. Stump

[rhudspith]

Bill,

If possible I would also like the info on your U-boat blue visor for reference.

Regards

Rob

[Gordon Williamson]

My knowledge on KM caps is of fairly recent origin as I only in the last couple of years decided to investigate these closely with a view to picking up a few originals for my collection. What I have found is as follows

Regrettably, REAL Kriegsmarine visors are very scarce indeed and are heavily faked. Well, faked is perhaps not the correct term, as most of the good copies are in fact reworked Bundesmarine caps. Very early Bundesmarine, not the horrible plasticky things issued today. I corresponded with a German hat collector who told me that getting original blue topped Bundesmarine headgear is now very difficult indeed because when the appear they are snapped up for re-working as KM caps. Bundesmarine headgear now seems always to use the white top.

On many visor caps, and KM pieces are no exception, the sweatband inside is not sewn directly to the cap, but on to a small strip of cloth which is then sewn to the cap body. On postwar pieces, this cloth is usually replaced by pvc type soft plastic. Also, on original issue Kriegsmarine caps, the band which forms the body of the cap ( i.e. the hat band stiffener) is most often actually made from stiff plastic type cellulose material (I am guessing that this is to stop the card which is used in most other caps rotting out in damp salt air environments). So, here we are with a situation which is the reverse of what is normal - i.e. the prtesence of what looks like a "plastic" type material is actuallyu a good sign. Mind you, one dealer once sent me one where this stiffener was actually a bright "electric blue" pvc plastic!!

Generally, issue pieces have a mid-blue satin liner, though examples exist with dark blue, black , golden tan or white liners.
Issue pieces seem generally to be totally devoid of maker marks.

All peaks for all ranks have the edges bound in leather. (On recent Bundesmarine caps this is again soft pvc type plastic).

With the top removed (some had fixed tops but most were removable to allow interchanging of white or blue covers) the inside of the interior lining should be covered in a fine white "cheesecloth" type material. On todays pieces this is a fine very thin felt type material.

The best advice I could give is to locate the English language editions of the French magazine "Militaria" which did a three or four part article on Kriegsmarine visor caps, covering all the different types with great colour photos, also showing the linings with the white/blue covers removed.

I'm still hunting for a nice Kapitän rank cap myself. If I find one, I will post some pictures. I know Francois has some nice photos stored on his PC of KM caps he once owned, showing interiors etc, maybe he can post some images?

Gordon

[Michel]

Hello Gordon,
I collect only the kriegsmarine and I agree with you, to find a good kriegsmarine cap it is very hard or a good tunic.
I send you some pictures of a Kapitän caps, if you want you can post the pictures on the forum.
Good hunting
Michel

[François SAEZ]

Hi Gordon,
Sorry but without the new owner permission (I will ask when he return from vacation), I will not post the requested pics - you can easily understand.
But Rick L. send me some pics of of bullion fronts and backs of the insignia, if you want to post what they look like. The backs are interesting for the weather/wear these SHOULD have.











Thanks Rick
Friendly
François

[Rick Research]

Thanks for posting them for me, Francois.

The naval insignia are a pair removed from the same hat. The wreaths will usually be in better shape since they were stitched onto the removable mohair capband, while the eagles up on the thin cloth cap tops took the brunt of the salt water spray.

These insignia are entirely in bullion, with real gold thread highlights as the tag indicates. The owner was rather a snappy dresser, and kept these after being removed as a POW. For some reason the scans come out looking duller and less gold than they really are. The wreath and cockade are padded.

Note the shape and proportions of the insignia. There will always be some variation in these, since they were made by hand, but the paper templates used as the "skeletons" of these insignia provide a basic outline. New fake insignia tend to be awkward and misproportioned.

To compare the Third Reich with Imperial versions, check the Imperial Forum for scans just posted there.

[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: Rick Lundstrom ]

[Gordon Williamson]

Michel has sent me some great images of some of his KM caps, I will be posting these soon as I can. Watch this space..........!

[Gordon Williamson]

Ok, firstly, let me add to the images from Rick by showing two of the eagles on my caps. The first is a standard "celleon" thread eagle worn in place of tarnish-prone bullion on many caps.



Next is a composite eagle, it uses two contrasting types of bullion thread and has the swastika and highlighting in celleon thread.




Now to the good stuff. Here firstly, is a lovely Korvettenkapitän ß Kapitän zur See visor with white top.






Now, a similar cap but for Leutnant zur See to Kapitänleutnant.






Now the blue cover version of this cap.