Help on Wünsche's Befehlspanther in Normandy

[Lloyd I.]

Schau mal hier panzermänner und antworte!

[Panzerknacker12]

I think this 501 number comes from a mis-identified Panther that actually belongs to Wiking.

5th kompanie thru 9th kompanie in 12.SS were Pz.IV.

12.SS used their own system of numbering, for example 3.Kp commander von Ribbentrop was 305. Some publications list 304, which is the Trp. fuhrer, perhaps he had to use that tank due to mechanical issues?
1st Platoon: 315, 316, 317, 318, 319
2nd Platoon: 325, etc.
3rd Platoon: 335, etc.

Wunsches tank was 055. The orders and specifications for the numbers being painted is all detailed in the book:Waffen SS armor in normandy by Norbert Szamveber. 501 is completely wrong. Every tank number in the division for Normandy is detailed in this book. I must stress that these orders are translated into english and copies of the original divisional order is printed in this book, so there is no doubt or debate.

[Lloyd I.]

Panzerknacker12, thank you for being the only one to respond

I will correct my graphic to show 055. Im puzzled still on Weber's 'confirmation' that he had '501' as his Turmnummer. Time muddies all things.

"Waffen-SS Armor in Normandy" by Norbert Szamveber

The following is what is reported from the directive (Anlage II/4) which I believe Szamveber simply repeated verbatim:

4 January 1944 Distribution of the tactical identification (turret) numbers. The tactical identification number system applied in SS-Panzer Regiment 12 was different from the principles followed by the Army and the armored units within the Waffen-SS.

"Turret number 055 was assigned to the tank of the Regimentskommandeur, turret number 054 to the Regimentsadjutant, and turret number 053 to the Regiment Ordonnanz Offizier. Numbers 055-060 were assigned to the tanks of the regimental (Panzer IV) Panzer Aufklärungszug. The commander of the I./SS-Panzer Regiment 12 received the number 155 for his tank, the number 154 was assigned to the Abteilungsadjutant and the Nachrichtenoffizier was given turret number 153. The five (Panther) tanks of the PanzerAufklärungszug of I./SS-Panzer Regiment 12 were given the numbers 156-160. The commander of the II./SS-Panzer Regiment 12 received turret number 555, number 554 was assigned to his adjutant and number 553 was handed out to the Nachrichtenoffizier. Turret numbers 556-560 were assigned to the (Panzer IV) Panzer Aufklärungszug of the II./SS-Panzer Regiment 12.

The 35cm high, 22cm wide numbers with 1cm border had to be painted in black, on the back of the tanks, and on the sides of their turrets, which were painted in camouflage colours. Between the numbers a 4cm wide clear stripe had to be left. (4)"

[Lloyd I.]

Thanks Panzerknacker12. Hopefully it's closer to the Anlage even though 3rd Kompanie did not follow this

[Panzerknacker12]

That photo has been mis-identified for decades, its from a seriew of Wiking photos. Still goes on today as well.

[Lennard]

Lloyd.I

You need to change your title also, Wunsche was not the commander of the I Abt of the Panzer Rgt, but the regimental commander himself, so the "I" needs to be deleted from your title.

cheers lennard

[Lloyd I.]

Lloyd.I

You need to change your title also, Wunsche was not the commander of the I Abt of the Panzer Rgt, but the regimental commander himself, so the "I" needs to be deleted from your title.

cheers lennard

You are correct Lennard however I copied it, cut & paste, directly from Szamveber's work referenced in this thread. I do appreciate the correction.

Photos still indicate to me that the Anlage was not followed iota. I'm also having a hard time understanding the discrepancy in what I've read about Panzer-Regiment 12 being identifiable by the use of track lacks on on the turrets in Normandy and photos which don't seem to support this. Not even the artist renderings show this. Two examples attached.

I don't own every reference out there however so I'm working off what I find and piece together.

[Lloyd I.]

Panther 204 of the 2 SSPzRgt12 destroyed during the Operation Epsom 3 between Cheux Tessel Rauray and Fontenay le Pesnel 14 Km W of Caen 26 June 1944

No track links.

[Lennard]

12ss

Hi Lloyd.I,

Ref track links on 12SS Panther turrets, some did, but most did not have them.

Haviing ordered the book you are referencing, I must admit I am a bit concerning about its accuracy, for instance you show a paste from the book of a Panther with 211 on the side, but it is captioned 3rd company, well unless Norbert Sz...... has another explanation, 211 is not 3rd company, also its style of numbering is very much more like 9th SS had.

Whist all those numbers you listed for the Regimental and Abteilung Stab panzers are possibly correct for 12SS, and its is correct that type 44 panzer stab is meant to have 8 panzers each, divided into 3 Befehl command panzers and 5 regular gun panzers as the AufklZug.

12SS in Normandy had nowhere near that amount of panzers in the Regimental Stab, they are credited with 2 or 3 Befehl Panther whilst the Aufkl Zug is made up entirely of Schwimmwagen and BMW R75 motorcycles under the command of Unterscharfuhrer Wontorra, and whilst the photos show him and his men all wearing black panzer crossover tunics, they are also shown sitting in and around their Schwiimmwagens.

Finally the only photos I know of two 12 SS Befehl Panthers (one with Wunsche in the turret) and a Befehl PzIV (with 12SS divisional insignia on the front and mounting a star antenna), none carry tactical numbers on their turrets.

So is this whole numbering system just theoretical or is there proof of implementation ?

cheers lennard

[Lloyd I.]

Great post Lennard.

On the very cover of that reference shows a 3.Kompanie Panther with white numbers not filled in with red as directed in the ANLAGE. The images of Wünsche's Befehlspanther were from the training excercise and may not have received turmnummer yet. The images from Normandie do show numbering but again, not following the Anlage completely for Panthers.

The tactical breakdown I have only shows two Befehlspanther available to the Regiment, Wünsche's being one of them. The third Befehls was a PzBefehlsWg IV.

[Lloyd I.]

Wünsche may never have had a number painted on period and sources are simply relying on that Anlage that is qouted despite photographic evidence that shows in Normandy the directive was not clearly followed as written.

[Lloyd I.]

Im still learning, still researching. Maybe it has already been written. The fun is in discussion and especially in research.

[Lloyd I.]

Two more 2 Kompanie Panthers.

Another shot showing 204 knocked out

One of 219 in Fontenay le Pesnil (4km east of Tilly-sur-Seulles)

[stonemint]

All I have to say is what an excellent thread this is--I had never seen most of these pictures, nor was I aware of the numbering system--kudos to you all....

[Lloyd I.]

Thank you Stonemint.

I've got 518 files in 6 folders on Wünsche. I continue to research and some is out there however there seems to always be more to discover. Especially with Panzer-Regiment 12