Saratov Stug Update

[JOHN JONES]

Hi all,
Yes a lot worse things are happening in the world, to worry about
but I think our sense of history is offended.
As Gran Sasso said, a $50 plastic cover would kept it in decent nick.
and as I said earlier, I would have paid them to do that..

If a Stug came out of a lake or river in the condition it is now there would
have been shouts of delight, wow - only a bit of rust, 75% paint and look at
the Balkan cross and unit Number.

The thing is, we know how it was in 2000 and thats what taints our view.
I can prehaps live with the crew kit and tools going. But its almost like a
Wittmanns spare black uniform showing up in a french chateau owners cellar.
I could live with the medals going a walk. But to see it later, minus the eagle
and the SS collar patch, lining a cat box, somewhat takes the edge of it.

History destroyed for sure, but we cannot turn the clock back.

John.

[Anders S]

http://www.detektorweb.cz/index.4me?...2988&mm=1&vd=1

[RTY]

To herring

I don't think that Russia is poor. But it looks like money is distributed unevenly, also it seems that it more depends on museums - Kubinka looks like a rich one, museum in Saratov - not very much.

I think you are watching a beautiful pictures at TV (Putin, Kremlin, Moscow). The real life is little different.
Kubinka has not money.
External (sometimes internal) condition of tanks is a result of volunteer' work for their own money.
The main benefit (sometimes disadvantage) of Kubinka is a disposition in immediate proximity to the Moscow (to Putin, to Minister of Defence) and attention of journalists.
Saratov is much farther from this all.

The main result of a common poorness of Russia and russian museums is that their staff and the direction do not understand the value of the tanks, their parts and original paint.
The main aim is to survive.

Best thing that people from this forum can do is to follow your guidelines - you know local situation and suggest, how people from this forum can help you?

I am living in 1000 km from Saratov and so I can't control the situation.
The "guidelines" that I can say is an opinion of a russian man who knows the situation in russian tank museum world little better than majority of people.

The best way is to create a group of people in Saratov who will not be indifferent about this StuG' condition.
But such group cannot be created distantly.
It can only be created in Saratov.

The second way is to create a political motive to move the StuG in Kubinka. This is nearly impossible.
In Kubinka the StuG will be most probably under the roof.
But the restoration volunteer' group in Kubinka was outlawed by the military direction in august'2007.
So, the qualified restoration in Kubinka is impossible now, and there is a great probability that the StuG will be "restored" at military overhaul plant (it will be died there 100%).

The third way is to deliver the StuG for restoration to the private collectors that are appearing now in Russia.
But there is no examples of successful restoration of "bodenfund" tanks by private collectors in Russia.
Also, there is a great probability that the StuG will no return to any museum and that it will disappear.

So, the main guideline is to think, not to cry.
There is no easy and obvious solution in this situation.

To Gimpy117

but she's going into a new display center. the good news is that this saves her from the scrap yard

The StuG is still StuG, even rusty.
Parts of U-534 is not U-534 - the difference from scrap yard is much smaller than from safe U-534.
Panther Ausf D in Belgium without engine and gearbox (thanks to mr.Wheatcroft) is not a Panther Ausf D - this is a "stuffed animal" of Panther.

[herring]

Wow... funny world...
It looks like we are (and will be..) watching a long lasting and painfull funeral of Stug???

As i can understand, the reason is a lack of: money, sense of mission and restoration knowledge of only people, who have the right to deal with this Stug?

Doesn't it create a situation, that reputation of Russia as a country taking care about common cultural heritage may be ruined? Maybe this sort of arguments will speak to people responsible for renovation?

They must be consious, that all the world is watching, what they do.

[RTY]

To herring

It looks like we are (and will be..) watching a long lasting and painfull funeral of Stug???

Yes. Like a tens of other StuGs, Panthers, PzIV and other historical tanks in Europe, USA, Russia and the near East.

As i can understand, the reason is a lack of: money, sense of mission and restoration knowledge of only people, who have the right to deal with this Stug?

Yes. This is my private opinion.

Doesn't it create a situation, that reputation of Russia as a country taking care about common cultural heritage may be ruined?

The reputation of my country "as a country taking care about common cultural heritage" consists of very many parts.
This StuG is a black spot, but it cannot ruin the whole reputation that was created by Hermitage, Historical museum or Kubinka (nearly 20 german tanks under the roof from 1970, 4 running german tanks including Panther - there is no running Panther in USA or England, yes?).

Maybe this sort of arguments will speak to people responsible for renovation?

Who are they?
People responsible for renovation.
Do you have such people in Poland?
Do you want to speak about fates of tanks and parts of tanks, that was discovered last 15 years in Poland?
I've seen pictures in Internet - there is a lot of metal that is rusting in your country. Do you want me to post them in this topic?
As I remember, several StuGs, PzIV, the bottom of Panther, parts of KT...
Where is your people responsible for renovation?

birdie

The idiot is you, american .
Do you remember about Aberdeen, where the tens of unique tanks are rusting even now?
Or about absolutely rusty Elephant?
You all are proud of Littlefield Panther, which was lifted in Poland and will be more replica than original tank.
At the same time original Panthers in Aberdeen are rusting with holes cutted in their boards.
Your Aberdeen Tiger is in restoration in Wheatcroft workshops - the whole America can not restore this tank?

Shut up and try to solve the restoration' problems of your countries - they are numerous.

We (russians) will try to solve our problems.
You all cannot help us, only to cry "bad russians", when you are not better.

[johnM]

Difference

There is a difference between allowing wartime tanks to rust and deliberately destroying them.

Rust is not the problem, oxy-acetylene torches and human greed and ignorance is the problem. Some of the Bulgarian relics have already been cut up for only a few dollars.

The reason we get excited about Russian discoveries is that the environmental conditions in Russia are unique in preserving battlefield relics in perfect condition. This is not the case in Western Europe.

n.b. The Aberdeen Elefant is now being restored. The Littlefield and Wheatcroft Panthers will soon be in running order.

The Saumur museum has many panzers in working condition - including a running King Tiger and Panther.

Bovington in the UK has the only running Tiger I.

Kubinka scrapped two thirds of their German vehicle collection in the sixties but Aberdeen destroyed many German tanks during the Korean war scrap drive (illegally, as it turned out) including a complete Karl and the sole surviving sdkfz 250/8. Bovington destroyed nearly all their WWI exhibits during the twenties and thirties and the E100 also disappeared in the fifties leaving, as far as I know, only one picture of it with tracks fitted. The point being that this sort of ignorance is international.

Most national collections are financed from the public purse and are therefore ALWAYS short of money. The people who provide the finance are not interested in tanks but only in balancing the books and their own short term political futures. They only pay attention when enough of us make a fuss - but that only applies to democracies, of course.

Lastly, it's worth remembering that many people do not regard Panzers in the same light as do we enthusiasts. To many people, they are an unwelcome reminder of a time of global insanity. Personally, I think we can't have too many of them

[Adrian Stevenson]

Gentlemen, please did not insult anyone's country here.

As John points out "ignorance is international".

Cheers, Ade.

[Joachim_Nilsson]

But the restoration volunteer' group in Kubinka was outlawed by the military direction in august'2007.

What?! Why??

[cossack1648]

There is another treasure find in Russia from Youtube. Maybe in a little worse shape, but still unique and decently preserved. I wonder what happened or will happen to it.

Link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUwF2...eature=related

[Adrian Stevenson]

I am sure that I have read somewhere that the FW 190 shown in that old film is now being restored?

Cheers, Ade.

[RTY]

johnM

I want to thank you for intelligent and correct message.
It is too little of them in this topic.

The reason we get excited about Russian discoveries is that the environmental conditions in Russia are unique in preserving battlefield relics in perfect condition.

The reverse of the medal is the situation, where the tanks often became a part of political games. This situation several years ago almost killed the Snegiri' Tiger and now killing the StuG.
The probability to find some more tanks in good condition is sufficient.
But also there is a sufficient probability that discovered tank may repeat the StuG' fate.

The Aberdeen Elefant is now being restored

After 60 years under the open sky. Ive seen photos of it's interior and engine compartment. The condition of it is poor.

The Littlefield and Wheatcroft Panthers will soon be in running order.

Maybe.
Maybe soon.
Maybe not.
Kubinka' Panther was ready for running after 9 monthes after the first engine starting.
Littlefield Panther' engine is ready/nearly ready for installing in tank.
But Wheatcroft' engines are not started up to this moment as I know. So, the the time of his tanks' running is undefined.

In any case, Littlefield and Wheatcroft (SdKfz also) are restoring "wrecks", assembling a tank from several killed wrecks, parts buyed from monuments (money talks, shame on the monuments' owners) and new-made parts. It will be 3/4 Panthers.
Original Panthers in national museums of USA and UK are standing and rusting.
Littlefield, Wheatcroft and SdKfz machines are desert of this people, not the desert of the government.

The Saumur museum has many panzers in working condition - including a running King Tiger and Panther.

Also Saumur has Panther G standing under the open sky...

Bovington in the UK has the only running Tiger I.

Do you know, what engine is installed in this tank?
As I heard, 230P30 from KingTiger.
Do you know the fate of original 210P45 engine?
As I heard, it was cutted in 198x...

To Joachim_Nilsson

What?! Why??

The military men decided "to establish order" in a museum.

cossack1648

There is another treasure find in Russia from Youtube. Maybe in a little worse shape, but still unique and decently preserved. I wonder what happened or will happen to it.

As I've heard, this FW was sold from Russia. I do not know, if this deal was legal.
Abroad this airplan was completely restored to a flying condition and...was completely crashed at some show.
So civilized europeans are taking care about relics...

[dmwg40]

There is another treasure find in Russia from Youtube. Maybe in a little worse shape, but still unique and decently preserved. I wonder what happened or will happen to it.

Link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUwF2...eature=related

wow well cool,
i dont like the rest of teh videos in the sequence though

[Theodor]

Abroad this airplan was completely restored to a flying condition and...was completely crashed at some show.
So civilized europeans are taking care about relics...

According to.........?

The aircraft can not crash, because it can not fly. It is currently under restoration and never been to any show.

<table border="0" width="750"><tbody><tr><td align="left" valign="top" width="20%">Fw 190A-5</td> <td align="left" valign="top" width="13%">0151227</td> <td align="left" valign="top" width="13%"> USA</td> <td align="left" valign="top" width="12%">CR</td> <td align="left" valign="top" width="12%">N19027 DG+HO 4./JG54, White A</td> <td align="left" valign="top" width="30%">Sold to Flying Heritage Collection, Seattle, Wahington state, USA. Under resoration with Gosshawk Unlimited to fly. Rec in Leningrad area 1990</td></tr></tbody></table>

[johnM]

A relief

A relief to know that. Hopefully it will never fly - there are several replicas flying which provide the sight and sound of a Fw190 without hazarding a real relic.

Thanks for that - I can sleep peacefully now ..

[RTY]

Theodor

It is currently under restoration and never been to any show.

According to.........?
Maybe, some photos?

In any case,

As I've heard...

means that this information can be wrong.