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**Larry M** · 08-14-2008, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by Rob Johnson View Post

Right on.

Rob.

Rob,

Thank you for your comments. I totally agree with you. The German soldier has been unfairly villanized by Hollywood movies and modern media propganda. Members of my mothers family were German Soldiers that fought and died for Germany. They were honorable men.

Larry M

**FJ George** · 08-14-2008, 09:34 PM

I am in agreement with most of the postings here of respect for the Axis soldiers whom fought against Allies during WWII. I spoken to many WWII german vets over the years at reenactments who were conscripted/drafted and forced into serving in the armed forces or other harsh alternatives.
I acknowledge them as men who fought for their country without all the political crap history has dumped on them.

I dont worship them, nor do I gush over them like rock stars like seen some reenactors at the battles I ve attended.

One guy posted earlier about closet nazis and it struck a cord with me. I ve seem them up close.

I was in the wrong barracks once at a WWII reenactment. I was at GAP back east and was removing my gear from the locker to get out of there. I was packing up and I heard a man with a german accent answering questions to a group of SS reenactors surrounding him at the end of the billet. At one point he held up and proudly displayed his black wrap with all his wartime awards to the small group now getting bigger with new folks coming in to here this Vet's storys.
Someone asked him about the scene at the end of "Saving Private Ryan" film. You know where the American paras turned back the Tiger & SS and hold the bridge. The german vet start in with a answer, So I m curious and I stop and listen and I quote "You give me those panzers and those men I will go threw that town in 15 minutes. "Nein problem"! He said with such arrogance in voice and his facial expression was .. just well he came off a real ass to me. He went on to answer more questions from his crowd of admirers.

I still like talking to all vets and learning from them.
George

**gew98** · 08-15-2008, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by ardennes1944 View Post

Hi

june 6,2008.......

Phil.

Simply pathetic , disturbing no less.

**Relic collector** · 08-16-2008, 01:31 PM

Hi all,

Willi thanks for starting this thread, it's been very interesting reading the different points of view on Wittman.

I have visited La Cambe many times as it' only about half an hour from where I live, on many occasions I've seen Wittman's grave decorated like the photos below, in fact I've attached a photo of his grave on 8th August last year (2007).

I too have been interested in Wittman for years due mainly to what I've read in books and in recent years documentaries on the History channel. I would not put flowers on his grave though, I think my grandparents and great uncles would all turn in their graves!

Each year on 11th November I go with my family to the British & Commonwealth Cemetery at Bayeux to pay our respects then on to the Cemetery at Fonteney where many British Lads are buried (many killed fighting the SS) yet few go to visit as it's one of 18 Commonwealth Cemeteries spread across Normandy which few people know. We have many British and American tourists stay with us and as soon as they have visited the cemeteries at La Cambe and ST.Laurent that is it, as far as they are concerend they've seen it all. Few ever go to visit the British Cemeteries further inland, but many I know have been to visit Wittman's grave, this I think is very sad.

The next photo (above) is of the true heroes of 8th August 1944, men of the 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry, after spending all night rumblin through enemy territory they lay in wait in their Shermans in the August heat waiting to be confronted by 12th SS Panzer Grenadiers, 12th SS Pz.IV's and Assualt guns and Tiger 1's of the 1st SS, and they didn't back down, stood their ground and did their bit, notably taking out Wittman and his crew, stopping them from taking out more British lads like he did at Villers Bocage.

So next time you go to Normandy maybe take the time to go and put some flowers on the grave of one of their comrades who never came back?

Steve

Attached Files

wittman grave.JPG (70.2 KB, 356 views)

**Relic collector** · 08-16-2008, 01:39 PM

The veteran standing on the far right is Ken Tout, author of "Tank!" "Tanks Advance!" "A Fine Night for Tanks" and "The Bloody Battle for Tilly", the photo was taken on 8th August last year on the Battlefield at St.Aignan only a few hundred yards from where Wittman's Tiger was knocked out, they talked us through the battle which was very interesting.

Not one of them saw Wittman as a hero.

I correspond with Ken on a regular basis, he said that next year on 8th August there will be another reunion and as many Veterans as possible will attend. I suggest going and meeting them and take time to hear their version of events, well worth it.

Steve

Attached Files

1st NY Veterans St Aignan 2007.JPG (45.7 KB, 352 views)

**Graeme G** · 08-16-2008, 02:05 PM

Well said that man.

**Gary Jucha** · 08-16-2008, 02:06 PM

At Last ..

At last some sense !!

Gary J.

Originally posted by Relic collector View Post

The veteran standing on the far right is Ken Tout, author of "Tank!" "Tanks Advance!" "A Fine Night for Tanks" and "The Bloody Battle for Tilly", the photo was taken on 8th August last year on the Battlefield at St.Aignan only a few hundred yards from where Wittman's Tiger was knocked out, they talked us through the battle which was very interesting.

Not one of them saw Wittman as a hero.

I correspond with Ken on a regular basis, he said that next year on 8th August there will be another reunion and as many Veterans as possible will attend. I suggest going and meeting them and take time to hear their version of events, well worth it.

Steve

**Panthera Tigris** · 08-17-2008, 10:22 AM

Guys, how difficult is it to simply respect the man as an exceptional soldier without having to make posts about others saying they sure thought he wasn't a hero or that placing flowers by his grave is pathetic? He fought in earnest for his country, to the best of his abilities, as did many on all sides of that great war. All the rest is just big talk from people who in hindsight feel the need to pass judgement over matters they do not fully understand. Frankly I'd expect some more objectivity from a forum that brings together individuals with a passion for the period.

P.S. When I mention "people who in hindsight", I mean us not the veterans obviously.

**Gary Jucha** · 08-17-2008, 11:10 AM

That

An outstanding soldier .. YES ... without question ...

But that is no excuse as to the political indoctrin of the regime .. with all it's intentions he ardently supported ..

.. Make no mistake .. he personally believed totally in what the Nazi's stood for ..

" He was only fighting for his country" is so lame, .. and a thoroughly worn out excuse !

He DID volunteer for the 1st SS LAH .... so there is NO WAY " he was just a soldier"

Where did he die ???? .. In France. A country that had been invaded and subdued ... he did not die defending his own soil !

As for placing flowers on his grave ... No problem .. you do whatever you think fit !

"All the rest is just big talk from people who in hindsight feel the need to pass judgement over matters they do not fully understand."
.. Amazing !!!! .. Outstanding !!! .. infact ...... Hilarious !!!

Selective "passion for the period" does the period and all who suffered injustice !!!

.... Just remember the facts ..... ALL THE FACTS !

Gary J.

Originally posted by Panthera Tigris View Post

Guys, how difficult is it to simply respect the man as an exceptional soldier without having to make posts about others saying they sure thought he wasn't a hero or that placing flowers by his grave is pathetic? He fought in earnest for his country, to the best of his abilities, as did many on all sides of that great war. All the rest is just big talk from people who in hindsight feel the need to pass judgement over matters they do not fully understand. Frankly I'd expect some more objectivity from a forum that brings together individuals with a passion for the period.

P.S. When I mention "people who in hindsight", I mean us not the veterans obviously.

**Pierre** · 08-23-2008, 06:11 PM

This panzer ace is IMO not far from the rockstar (you know a bit like the Doors' singer

). Why? Check the La Cambe cemetery. Everywhere you walk you have green grass on soft ground but just in front of Wittmann's grave no grass at all and stone hard ground...

When you compare Wittmann and Knispel as for the look... Knispel looks more like Oddball in Kelly's heroes. A bit hard for the propaganda to use him as a reference...

Pierre

Attached Files

Kurt_Knispel.jpg (42.5 KB, 215 views)

**PzV** · 08-24-2008, 04:17 AM

Most German veterans that I know (including many tankers and my father-in-law who was a former Fallschirmjäger) are just happy to have survived the war and captivity after the war (which was often longer than their active military service!) and don't find anything glorious about it. They were in a system which people in a democratic country cannot understand and this had an effect on their thinking to say nothing of the constant propaganda they were faced with. Wittmann was a front soldier and very successful but on the losing side. It is up to the individual to make their own decision on him and others such as Rudel.

**behblc** · 08-24-2008, 07:15 AM

I have to agree with Steve - whilst I can afford respect to Wittmann as a soldier , it must end there.
Having been to la cambe several times in recent years I do go to see Wittmann's grave - I also look at several others.

Within that cemetery are thousands of unknown soldiers - they are never mentioned.

Last year I made a point of visiting Christian Tychsen's grave , he like Wittmann has to be viewed in context otherwise a distorted sense of reality emerges.

Elevating Michael Wittmann from that of a respected enemy to that of a Normandy Celeb. detracts from what the Normandy actually was.

Will I visit his grave again ?
Yes, hopefully next year but not as a "fan" hopefully as a neutral and objective observer.

**Pierre** · 09-06-2008, 04:10 AM

Today every soldier killed in action is considered as a hero even if he was just sitting in a vehicule which drove on a land mine. I don't see why Wittmann couldn't at least be considered like other unknown killed in action soldiers. Both Wittmann and the unknown soldier chose not to stay home on their fat arses.

Pierre

**Jean-Loup** · 09-06-2008, 06:05 AM

Sometimes it is better to stay at home on your arse, then to go and kill people in a foreign land or participate in 'evil' activities (if I may permit myself to use such childish words as evil, but you get my point). And sometimes soldiers have an arse much fatter then a civilian arse.

JL

**Norman LaBarge** · 09-07-2008, 08:30 PM

As a former U.S. Army officer part of professional development is the study of military history and military historical figures. Along with this a lot of soldiers of every country study and are interested in military history and military personalities.
I have studied and or read about many of these to include Wittman. If they happen to be Nazi's or have any other undesirable political affiliation, that is really unfortunate. But, as any professional soldier it is hard not to respect his achievements. You do not have to be a Nazi to admire what he did as a soldier.
Sun Tsu points out that one must know thy enemy like yourself.
And just as there are those who visit his grave out of morbid curiosity, admiration, or respect. The war was fought to free the world of the Nazi tyranny. We won and along with that freedom comes the freedom to differ. Let God be the judge and just enjoy life.

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