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    #46
    top 5.

    hello,
    Here is the top 5 of for the german aces :

    1. Kurt Knispel (s.Pz.Abt 503) -- 162 vict.
    2. Otto Carius (s.Pz.Abt 502)-- 150 vict.
    3. Johannes Hans Bolter (s.Pz.Abt 502)-- 139 vict.
    4. Michael Wittman (s.SS.Pz.Abt 101)-- 138 vict.
    5. Möbius Karl (Rolf ?) (s.SS.Pz.Abt.101)--125 vict.

    Kurt Knispel is maybe unknown, not a lot of informations and pictures about him.

    All the best.

    Florian.

    Comment

      #47
      Thanks Florian. Interesting stats,
      Cheers,
      Johnnie

      Originally posted by florian_geyer72 View Post
      hello,
      Here is the top 5 of for the german aces :

      1. Kurt Knispel (s.Pz.Abt 503) -- 162 vict.
      2. Otto Carius (s.Pz.Abt 502)-- 150 vict.
      3. Johannes Hans Bolter (s.Pz.Abt 502)-- 139 vict.
      4. Michael Wittman (s.SS.Pz.Abt 101)-- 138 vict.
      5. Möbius Karl (Rolf ?) (s.SS.Pz.Abt.101)--125 vict.

      Kurt Knispel is maybe unknown, not a lot of informations and pictures about him.

      All the best.

      Florian.

      Comment

        #48
        Anyone know what happened to the items found in the crews original grave, i remember reading that they excavated a mauser hsc pistol along with other items.

        Comment

          #49
          I believe the items are at the office of the Wargraves Commission (Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge).

          Greg
          sigpicFacebook "Tigers in the Ardennes" book page
          www.facebook.com/TigersintheArdennes

          Comment

            #50
            Hi,
            Who was the greatest tank guy of all time up to the present date,there was a Israli called Tal was there not.
            Merdock

            Comment

              #51
              Hello
              The last postings in this tread just comfirm my view, rank and kills is the main issue, not the men, or their faith.
              The opening line in this tread say it all :
              Wittmann was one of my boy hood heros
              That line tells me two things, americans would never understand war until they have it on their own territory, second thing is, it must have been a shortage of american heros...
              lolle

              Comment

                #52
                Lolle, thanks for posting. I think its pretty sad that Norway and many other countries always get to be the poor relation in the European theatre. My uncle worked as an agent in Norway during the war and for NATO for many years after.

                I think you are right. People had to experience occupation or have direct knowledge of it to understand things from a European point of view.

                My uncle has a holiday home in Kristiansand. There is a fjord below that has a sunken U boat in it that he had a hand in dispatching. He never tells the stories but on more than one time I have been on a ferry across that fjord and he has said we are passing over the boat he sunk.

                Scandanavian/Baltic countries got a very hard time under the jackboot and we should all remember this.

                Comment

                  #53
                  Lolle has a point here. Just who was Wittmann fighting for and what kind of organization did he belong to? Of course we all know and it is all too easy circumvent the ugly truths when the passion of collecting and studying history over takes us. When I collected TR material I did just that. Now I can no longer do so. While I dont doubt for a second that anyone of us out there is not aware of this, I think we sometimes forget when we use the term "hero" in this case.

                  CB

                  Comment

                    #54
                    Taken two weeks ago this one. I visited the Somme and Normandy. Took over 200 photos! Curiosity led me to Wittman's grave. I saw way too many Cemeterys in that week. A superb, informative holiday.
                    Attached Files

                    Comment

                      #55
                      A shot of La Cambe Military Cemetery from the top of the memorial mound.
                      Attached Files

                      Comment

                        #56
                        Originally posted by lolle View Post
                        Hello
                        The last postings in this tread just comfirm my view, rank and kills is the main issue, not the men, or their faith.
                        The opening line in this tread say it all :
                        Quote:
                        <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Wittmann was one of my boy hood heros </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
                        That line tells me two things, americans would never understand war until they have it on their own territory, second thing is, it must have been a shortage of american heros...
                        lolle
                        I said "boy hood." If I still felt the same way today that would be different. When I was growing up in the US in the 60's (both parents are German born and were refugees from what is now Poland) my family's home was filled with German veterans, all of whom lost their families in the east and came to the US after the war for a new start in life. One was a LAH vet, so I heard quite a few stories about Wittmann. The vast majority of my father's family was killed, one of his sisters was spared by the Russians for obvious reasons but could never leave the Russian zone (she committed suicide in the DDR), land his family had lived on for almost 700 years was lost, and my dad only survived because he was flying in the west. I suspect I, with my military service, and my family understand more about war than you would ever understand.

                        As for American heros, I spent 8 days in Normandy this past June with a number of 82nd Airborne veterans. I sure heard the word "hero" used to describe them by quite a few French locals who were there during the battle.

                        And I will not make a comment about Norway in WWII.
                        Willi

                        Preußens Gloria!

                        sigpic

                        Sapere aude

                        Comment

                          #57
                          Hi Willi,

                          My visited in 2002:



                          Best regards from Brazil,

                          Ricardo.

                          Comment

                            #58
                            Hello mightymouse,

                            here a picture from Wittmanns pistol and the other items...


                            best regards
                            christian
                            Attached Files

                            Comment

                              #59
                              These subjects are sensitive, I'm sure, especially for those in Europe who suffered during the war. But I think perhaps you sell we Americans a bit short in believing that we have to have a war on our own soil to "understand" it. Americans have seen first hand the ravages of every major war since the turn of the last century. We didn't have to have concentration camps in our own country to recognize the horror of the ones our soldiers liberated. I didn't have to see the villiages I saw destroyed in Vietnam, happen in my own country, to understand the death and misery involved. My German wifes parents were small children during the war and vividly remember the horrors of it. Both her grandfathers served on the Eastern Front, imprisoned by the Russians, and when came home both drank themselves to death. Germany itself was a victim of the Third Reich.
                              We Americans also have a large number of our own heros which we celebrate, and certainly know the difference between heros and villians.
                              I live in Europe, and truely understand the depth of your feelings. I hope you also understand mine. And certainly no intent to quarrel here.
                              My best regards to you,
                              Johnnie

                              Originally posted by lolle View Post
                              Hello
                              The last postings in this tread just comfirm my view, rank and kills is the main issue, not the men, or their faith.
                              The opening line in this tread say it all :
                              That line tells me two things, americans would never understand war until they have it on their own territory, second thing is, it must have been a shortage of american heros...
                              lolle

                              Comment

                                #60
                                Originally posted by cbuehler View Post
                                Lolle has a point here. Just who was Wittmann fighting for and what kind of organization did he belong to? Of course we all know and it is all too easy circumvent the ugly truths when the passion of collecting and studying history over takes us. When I collected TR material I did just that. Now I can no longer do so. While I dont doubt for a second that anyone of us out there is not aware of this, I think we sometimes forget when we use the term "hero" in this case.

                                CB
                                Thats really does sum up my personal view of not only Wittmann but also the cult that seems to have grown up around him over the years. As has already been pointed out Wittmann's political beliefs are very well known and that should be born in mind when evaluating the mythical 'hero' status he is popularly held in. Some seem to look purely at numbers in deciding what kind of man this really was 'he killed lots of "tanks", had a really great uniform, won lots of shiny medals and ended up in a really cool vehicle therefore he deserves to be elevated to the status of a god', it not only ignores the very, very negative points that are associated with that history, but actively distorts history by causing such absurd myths and mistruths about various aspects of his life and death to persist. Certainly he was an experienced combat veteran and had the benefit of a highly competant crew, he did his job well, but I don't believe he deserves to be credited as anything more than 'a good soldier', to idealise and worship him the way some people do frankly makes me a little uncomfortable. If he hadn't made a bad decision and been on the wrong end of what Joe Ekins himself freely admits was a 'lucky shot' I wouldn't want to guess how many Allied soldiers might have been killed by this Nazi "ace", frankly as some of them may have been my felllow countrymen I'm glad things worked out the way they did, and those men got to return home to their families.

                                Comment

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