Announcement

**fugpaw** · 12-26-2006, 03:16 PM

Howard, as I'm sure you know, the set/accepted figure for the number or true Condor (otherwise known as the 1936 WBs) awarded WBs is 183 (182 black and 1 silver).

I agree with all your comments - even though I have posted my "Condor"/"Spanish" style in this thread, I've always accepted that none in my collection are true Condor WB's - however they are of the "Condor"/"Spanish" style or what technically should be called Type 1 1939 WB.

True 1936 WBs are a very rare beast.

**Howard Kelley** · 12-27-2006, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by fugpaw View Post

Howard, as I'm sure you know, the set/accepted figure for the number or true Condor (otherwise known as the 1936 WBs) awarded WBs is 183 (182 black and 1 silver).

I agree with all your comments - even though I have posted my "Condor"/"Spanish" style in this thread, I've always accepted that none in my collection are true Condor WB's - however they are of the "Condor"/"Spanish" style or what technically should be called Type 1 1939 WB.

True 1936 WBs are a very rare beast.

Hello fugpaw,

Indeed very few of the "Condor Legion" wound badges were issued and or awarded. However several thousand type I 1939 wound badges were awarded. To imply that a type I 1939 wound badge is the same as a "Condor Legion" wound badge is very misleading. The style of the badge does favor, but a spade must be still be called a spade. (or a club a club or a heart a heart, etc.)

Two things disturbed me about this thread.

1). The General acceptance that if it looks like a "Condor Legion Badge," then it's O.K. to call it a Spanish Wound Badge.

and

2). If I posted a type I 1939 badge here on this thread and now one corrected my error.......Then tried to sell it, as a "Legion Condor Spanish Wound Badge" I'd be committing a fraud. I would be deceiving the buyer, making them believe they were buying the "real deal." That's totally unacceptable.

Yes, were splitting hairs about a stupid wound badge. And probably no one gives a rat's behind. It we were talking Knight's Crosses, General Assault Badges, or other German Badges, specific details would be of great interest to collectors. Too bad the lowly wound badge does not get any attention.

My desire is to help inform the forum and new collectors.

Cheers,
Howard

P.S. Ever wonder why these "Legion Condor" wound badges are refered to as 1936 wound badges? Especially since the badges were made and awarded sometime after May of 1939. ( I know, stupid question! Why is the sky blue.....)

**fugpaw** · 12-27-2006, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by Howard Kelley View Post

Hello fugpaw,

Indeed very few of the "Condor Legion" wound badges were issued and or awarded. However several thousand type I 1939 wound badges were awarded. To imply that a type I 1939 wound badge is the same as a "Condor Legion" wound badge is very misleading. The style of the badge does favor, but a spade must be still be called a spade. (or a club a club or a heart a heart, etc.)

Two things disturbed me about this thread.

1). The General acceptance that if it looks like a "Condor Legion Badge," then it's O.K. to call it a Spanish Wound Badge.

and

2). If I posted a type I 1939 badge here on this thread and now one corrected my error.......Then tried to sell it, as a "Legion Condor Spanish Wound Badge" I'd be committing a fraud. I would be deceiving the buyer, making them believe they were buying the "real deal." That's totally unacceptable.

Yes, were splitting hairs about a stupid wound badge. And probably no one gives a rat's behind. It we were talking Knight's Crosses, General Assault Badges, or other German Badges, specific details would be of great interest to collectors. Too bad the lowly wound badge does not get any attention.

My desire is to help inform the forum and new collectors.

Cheers,
Howard

P.S. Ever wonder why these "Legion Condor" wound badges are refered to as 1936 wound badges? Especially since the badges were made and awarded sometime after May of 1939. ( I know, stupid question! Why is the sky blue.....)

Howard, it appears from your response that you took some offence to my response- none was meant - you have some extremely valid and informative points.

Maybe it's a misconception of mine, however when WBs are listed as "Condor WBs" do people really think they are those awarded to TR personnel who served during the Spanish Civil War or are they aware they are Type 1 WBs?

Personally speaking, when I see "Condor" WBs for sale I always initially think they are Type 1 WBs - and on brief examination they usually are - which is what I expect.

I take your point about "fraud" and it being "totally unacceptable" - which is fair comment; however I do think that most WB collectors know what is meant by "Condor".

I do have to take exception to your term "stupid wound badge" - what's "stupid" about it? Bear in mind what a person suffered in the process of being awarded one!

Cheers and have a great New Year,

Fugpaw

**Chrvip68** · 12-27-2006, 03:59 PM

Howard has some good points and i agree, but i disagree that recomends Hamelmans book as a bible of the 'Spanish' WB because NOBODY knows for sure this issue, speculations is not the fact. I admit though Hamelman's effort.

The reason that i don't have any of this type in my collection and never i will is because are overpriced, with a black LC WB i can buy a mint silver or a worn gold 39 WB and i'll have piece in my mind of originality, another reason is the high quality fakes with gray area and the limited knowledge of the subject is a field loaded with mines.

**fugpaw** · 12-27-2006, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by Chris Varveris View Post

Howard has some good points and i agree, but i disagree that recomends Hamelmans book as a bible of the 'Spanish' WB because NOBODY knows for sure this issue, speculations is not the fact. I admit though Hamelman's effort.

The reason that i don't have any of this type in my collection and never i will is because are overpriced, with a black LC WB i can buy a mint silver or a worn gold 39 WB and i'll have piece in my mind of originality, another reason is the high quality fakes with gray area and the limited knowledge of the subject is a field loaded with mines.

Here, here Chris! (Greek to English or is that English to Greek? translation is roughly - quite right), but they're still great WBs.

**Howard Kelley** · 12-27-2006, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by fugpaw View Post

Howard, it appears from your response that you took some offence to my response- none was meant - you have some extremely valid and informative points.

Maybe it's a misconception of mine, however when WBs are listed as "Condor WBs" do people really think they are those awarded to TR personnel who served during the Spanish Civil War or are they aware they are Type 1 WBs?

Personally speaking, when I see "Condor" WBs for sale I always initially think they are Type 1 WBs - and on brief examination they usually are - which is what I expect.

I take your point about "fraud" and it being "totally unacceptable" - which is fair comment; however I do think that most WB collectors know what is meant by "Condor".

I do have to take exception to your term "stupid wound badge" - what's "stupid" about it? Bear in mind what a person suffered in the process of being awarded one!

Cheers and have a great New Year,

Fugpaw

Hello Fugpaw,

No offense taken. I enjoy hearing and learning from other collector's. We all have different perspectives, which makes life interesting. Everyone on this forum have something in common.....collecting, and a love of History.

Just wanted to make the point that generalizations in this hobby are dangerous, especially when new collector's do not have the reference material or the knowledge that comes from years of collecting.

Seems like I put my foot in my mouth with the "stupid wound badge" generalization. I am only speaking of the object, in this case a wound badge. Not of the suffering or torment that a soldier endured to receive such an award(s).

If I pick up a Luger or a 1911A1 I don't think about anything but the item, and is everything correct. Rarely, if ever do I consider that these weapons of war, may have killed or wounded another human being.

As collectors we forget about the representations of a badge or medal. We become desensitized to the objects. And the market place does influence the demand or lack thereof of certain items. Wound Badges are not held to a very high regard by many collectors. Because of this, if anyone cared about the correct terms for these wound badges, we would not be having this conversation.

Have a Happy & Safe New Year!

Cheers,
Howard

**Howard Kelley** · 12-27-2006, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by Chris Varveris View Post

Howard has some good points and i agree, but i disagree that recomends Hamelmans book as a bible of the 'Spanish' WB because NOBODY knows for sure this issue, speculations is not the fact. I admit though Hamelman's effort.

The reason that i don't have any of this type in my collection and never i will is because are overpriced, with a black LC WB i can buy a mint silver or a worn gold 39 WB and i'll have piece in my mind of originality, another reason is the high quality fakes with gray area and the limited knowledge of the subject is a field loaded with mines.

Chris,

Points well taken. There are many gray areas. An I have many questions. But have not found the documentation to prove some of my theories.

Yes, with current prices. You might be able to find a super Gold type II 1939 wound badge for the same prices of a type I black 1939 WB. (that is being sold as a Spanish WB)

Have a Happy New Year!

Cheers,
Howard

**fugpaw** · 12-28-2006, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by Howard Kelley View Post

Hello Fugpaw,

No offense taken. I enjoy hearing and learning from other collector's. We all have different perspectives, which makes life interesting. Everyone on this forum have something in common.....collecting, and a love of History.

Just wanted to make the point that generalizations in this hobby are dangerous, especially when new collector's do not have the reference material or the knowledge that comes from years of collecting.

Seems like I put my foot in my mouth with the "stupid wound badge" generalization. I am only speaking of the object, in this case a wound badge. Not of the suffering or torment that a soldier endured to receive such an award(s).

If I pick up a Luger or a 1911A1 I don't think about anything but the item, and is everything correct. Rarely, if ever do I consider that these weapons of war, may have killed or wounded another human being.

As collectors we forget about the representations of a badge or medal. We become desensitized to the objects. And the market place does influence the demand or lack thereof of certain items. Wound Badges are not held to a very high regard by many collectors. Because of this, if anyone cared about the correct terms for these wound badges, we would not be having this conversation.

Have a Happy & Safe New Year!

Cheers,
Howard

As collectors we should never forget why awards were made - we in our little way are custodians of history. Every award should not be treated as a metal/cloth trinket, I for one always want to know the history behind an award - usually the seller cannot give (rather does not know) the history - it's a shame! Because you and I care - that's why we're having this discussion.

IMHO - collectors should (and in many cases do) care about the history behind an award - people went through hell and back, awards were given in respect of this, we as collectors need/must respect/appreciate this.

Cheers,

Fuggy P

**Huntzman** · 01-20-2007, 11:53 PM

Hate to open a can of worms......

......But as a newbie here, I just wanted to ask a few questions to get some clarification. I've noted the conversation about the Spanish War WB and am a little puzzled. My view has been the following:

The Type I Wound Badge - Commonly referred to as the Spanish Civil War WB was instituted 22 May 1939. A total of only 183 were produced (182 Black & 1 Silver) and were awarded to military personnel (Condor Legion) wounded in the Spanish Civil War.

However, this design "Type I" continued to be awarded till approx. 1942.

The "Type II" Wound Badge 1939 was instituted on 1 September 1939. In 1943 at the behest of Goebbels this award was authorized for civilians injured as a result of the war.

OK, are my observations correct ?

1. Unless you have some form of provenance, your odds of having one of the original 183 Type I / SW WB's is remote.

2. You can have a Type I (non-SW) WB which was awarded to a WWII soldier for injuries sustained.

3. ONLY military personnel could ever be awarded the Type I (non-SW) WB.

4. Has the original SW WB manufacturer for the 183 initial awards ever been identified ?

5. There are four distinct classes of WB's: (Not including variants of the same style)

a. Type I - Spanish War (Condor Legion Personnel)
b. Type I - WWII (Military Only)
c. Type II - WWII (Military / Civilian)
d. Type III - Assasination Attempt / 20 July 1944 (Wolf's Lair Personnel)

Thanks for humoring a newbie,
Andrew

**fugpaw** · 01-21-2007, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by Huntzman View Post

......But as a newbie here, I just wanted to ask a few questions to get some clarification. I've noted the conversation about the Spanish War WB and am a little puzzled. My view has been the following:

The Type I Wound Badge - Commonly referred to as the Spanish Civil War WB was instituted 22 May 1939. A total of only 183 were produced (182 Black & 1 Silver) and were awarded to military personnel (Condor Legion) wounded in the Spanish Civil War.

However, this design "Type I" continued to be awarded till approx. 1942.

The "Type II" Wound Badge 1939 was instituted on 1 September 1939. In 1943 at the behest of Goebbels this award was authorized for civilians injured as a result of the war.

OK, are my observations correct ?

1. Unless you have some form of provenance, your odds of having one of the original 183 Type I / SW WB's is remote.

2. You can have a Type I (non-SW) WB which was awarded to a WWII soldier for injuries sustained.

3. ONLY military personnel could ever be awarded the Type I (non-SW) WB.

4. Has the original SW WB manufacturer for the 183 initial awards ever been identified ?

5. There are four distinct classes of WB's: (Not including variants of the same style)

a. Type I - Spanish War (Condor Legion Personnel)
b. Type I - WWII (Military Only)
c. Type II - WWII (Military / Civilian)
d. Type III - Assasination Attempt / 20 July 1944 (Wolf's Lair Personnel)

Thanks for humoring a newbie,
Andrew

Hello Andrew,

Your points 1, 2, 3 are IMHO correct.

As for point 4 I don't know who the maker or maybe makers were, I'd love to know the answer to this.

As for point 5, your assumptions are correct. There are also I believe the 1957 WBs and of course Imperial WBs.

**Huntzman** · 01-21-2007, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by fugpaw View Post

As for point 4 I don't know who the maker or maybe makers were, I'd love to know the answer to this.

As for point 5, your assumptions are correct. There are also I believe the 1957 WBs and of course Imperial WBs.

Fugpaw

Thanks for the followup and comments.

Yes, it would be nice to identify the original manufacturer, although I feel that it would only "lessen" the debate, as I am sure they also continued to manufacturer these WB's. But at least it could help to further define the issue.

Andrew

**Chrvip68** · 04-24-2007, 01:18 PM

btt

**jayhawkhenry** · 04-28-2007, 08:15 AM

Here is my Type 1 BWB

I just picked up this little prize. It is my first Type 1 (I hope not the last) in 35 years of collecting...
Regards, Henry

Attached Files

blackwoundfront1.JPG (61.2 KB, 788 views)

**jayhawkhenry** · 04-28-2007, 08:17 AM

back of my Type 1

Thanks for taking a look!

Attached Files

blackwoundback1.JPG (65.6 KB, 783 views)

**fugpaw** · 04-28-2007, 08:34 AM

Henry, nice badge.

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Please post your 1936/Spanish pattern/ Legion Condor Wound bagdes here.

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