Party Badge related, original?

[Frank Heukemes]

Hi,

Would somebody be able to tell me if the TOP BADGE is original, please?
And a rough price estimation for the three would be cool as well.

Cheers, Frank

[Frank Heukemes]

reverse

[John Bart]

reverse

Hello again Frank,
I have reservations about the top badge due to the RZM marking.
It has a weird slant to it that I've never seen before. I had a few opportunuties to pick up a few of these but passed on all of them.
Also the white enamelled area behind the swaz just looks to be too
white. Just my opinion.
Regards,
John

[Kevin Sanders]

Party Badges

Check out this web-site; may be of interest to you mate.

http://enamelsofwar.homestead.com/

Hello again Frank,
I have reservations about the top badge due to the RZM marking.
It has a weird slant to it that I've never seen before. I had a few opportunuties to pick up a few of these but passed on all of them.
Also the white enamelled area behind the swaz just looks to be too
white. Just my opinion.
Regards,
John

[TerryG]

Nsdap

Frank
A while ago I printed a few pages from www.nsdapbadges.com (what has happened to this site by the way? I seem to remember an old thread on this subject where people were concerned about the health of the chap in question (Frobler???).
Anyway, I do have a hard copy of the pages on the Deutschland Erwache 1933 badge. The ones he shows seem to be exactly the same as yours. One of them also has the strange RZM mark with the Z higher than the R. Frobler seems to be happy with that anomaly.

On another page I copied, which covers the "Adolf Hitler 1933" badge, he shows a series of 6 close-ups of different RZM marks, including yours with the funny Z. Quote " There is one other aspect of these badges I should mention. They all bear a unique RZM stamp with the R and the Z are quite cramped and the Z is fit into the R so that it may be a little higher than the R. This is a very interesting trait as I have seen a number of party membership badges and Deutschland Erwach badges with the same RZM stamp." unquote.............Quote "At the present time I am comfortable in believing that they are real" unquote.

As far as the painted one is concerned (left hand side), are the legs of the "M" kind of spread-out? If so, the same website states: quote "Spread spiky M. Almost all badges bearing this trait are fake" unquote.

As far as the M1/27 is concerned, I have never seen a 7 like this on this kind of badge, although my experience is limited. The first "S" of Socialistiche also looks strange, as if it is upside down???

I hope this will help you. Let me know if you want me to try and scan/email you copies of these pages. I guess I should not post copies of these pages on the forum in view of obvious copyright laws.

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear John, Kevin, Terry,

Thanks for the opinions.

@Terry: No, I do not need these pages, you recited the relevant parts in an excellent way.

It is good to see the top badge might be ok, as I haven´t seen those before (I do not actively collect political) and I just got it recently with some other (good) stuff. The other two lower ones I just posted together with it for the purpose of a later sale. I have had the two lower ones for a very long time now (since the end of the seventies) and considering the sources they came from I am very confident they have to be ok.

But yes, the M is spread out on the zinc version badge. And yes, the first S and the 7 in the mark are indeed strange on the lower right one, but if I would have to put my hands into a fire for one, if would be that one, just because I know where it came from.

Thanks for the help so far. Any more opinions?

Cheers, Frank

[James Noble]

Frank, what troubles me most about your badge in question is it having both the RZM and GES GESCH markings as the RZM didn't come into effect until late 34 in a limited fashion and full control of NSDAP items in 1935 at least that's what I have been able to find out. Not saying it's a bad badge but it would give me cause to pass unless like your party badge you are comfortable with the source.

[jscott]

Frank, what troubles me most about your badge in question is it having both the RZM and GES GESCH markings as the RZM didn't come into effect until late 34 in a limited fashion and full control of NSDAP items in 1935 at least that's what I have been able to find out. Not saying it's a bad badge but it would give me cause to pass unless like your party badge you are comfortable with the source.

I agree with James, I've done a fair amount of research on these pins and I don't think they should be marked in that fashion. I have seen dealers selling the same pin (marked the same) as original.

[Mike Pinkus]

Frank
imo i do not have a problem with the 1933 pin.
it has always been my opinion and from what i have been able to determine that these were made in the 1935-1936 time frame and were issued as commemoratives of the"rise to power". thus it is not too out of the ordinary to have the RZM and the ges gesch on the reverse....the comments above are valid as well as we had a lengthy discussion on these pieces awhile ago and no clear resolution was arrrived at. i always liked the enamel on these and to me they had the correct feel.
mike

[James Noble]

Frank,I guess it all comes down to what it feels like and looks like in hand. Like Mike has stated the house is split on what makes it a good badge or bad. From just looking at the front of your badge I would have no problem with it as the enamel work looks great it's the double markings that give me cause to wonder.

[MH184]

Frank,

I have the 'Germany Awake' and 'Adolf Hitler' badges these two differ from the so called 'accepted' badges shall we say, that is with the horizontal line through the Z.

Hold up the badges to the light and see the finish on the surface of the badge does it look dimpled in places ? The genuine badge I have is smooth as a babies rear end, also the other enamel badges I have without this cross on the Z have the same trait of bad enamel so to speak compared to the same badge of the same maker mark which has glass smooth enamel all over the surface. The pin plates also differ to an extent when you look closely.

I was lead to believe these were fakes years ago and from the Lumsden book on 'Detecting the obvious' (even for the likes of me ) in reference to the maker marks.

I'm dubious of them but there seems to be different opinion's

Kind regards,

Marcus

[TerryG]

Badges

J.R.Cone's "One People, One Reich" has a photo of a Deutschland Erwache 1933 badge. The reverse shows both an RZM and a Ges.Gesch. marks. Photo is not too clear but it looks like the Z is higher than the R in RZM and the Z does not look crossed. As such I do not have any problems with the badge. If still available I would like it . WWW.nsdapbadges.com did mention the point that Marcus makes about Robin Lumsden's book and the crossed Z. The same website disagrees with R.Lumsden on this issue.

Does anyone know what happened to this Mr Frobler then?

[Richardxyz]

I have never liked that picture in J.R. Cones book, if I recall it looks the type with a shiny reverse which are even more suspect. Personally I do not like seeing the RZM and Ges Gesch. together, I think it should either be an RZM with a maker's number or Ges Gesch. and a maker's name/town. But I am not a 100%

The M1/17 Zinc badge is, is one of the few that has the hyphen sprawled between the L and the S as opposed to the hyphen being tucked in tight to the L . It seems that Assam & Sohne bucked the trend on that score.

[Richard]

At first glance the upper badge appears to be a good one from the obverse. There has never been substantial proof one way or another as to the authenticity of this party badge variation. My personal opinion leans towards post 1945 productin for the following reasons:

1. The swastika is thinner than that seen on most party related badges (other than some small versions that I have seen of the NSDAP badge).

2. The RZM mark in conjunction with ges. gesch. but without an RZM number. Highly improbable that an RZM approved manufacturer would be able to produce party badges without identifying itself by number.

3. One of the sloppiest RZM marks in existence. Totally un-uniform in appearance. Besides the letters being out of line and just plain sloppy, the circles aren't even close to concentic.

4. the lettering and date on the obverse are not very clear or crisp as on other party related badges.

Even though the RZM had been established in July 1934 in Munich, the RZM mark was only required to be affixed to items beginning on January 1, 1935 by Presidential Decree of December 20, 1934. This would mean that the badges would actually have to have produced after at least July 1934 to bear the RZM mark. Though it is possible (and quite feasable) that they would produce a rally badge at that time with the 1933 date on the obverse, it would also make sense that some were produced prior to that date and therefore shuold also exist with just a ges. gesch. mark or no mark at all. Though none of these facts can absolutely condemn the badge, it makes me too uncomfortable to ever want to purchase one until some iron clad provenance or a picture of one in wear is discovered.

The badge on the lower left is, in my opinion, genuine. Assmann was the only manufacturer that I know of that actually used a canted M. Though the canted M is often discounted as a fake (and in some instances it is), I can vouch for Assmann's use of the canted M. I have an SA flagbearer's gorget of known provenance which has the canted M on both the chain and the gorget. Up until I was given this piece, I had always believed this mark to be fake.

The badge on the lower right looks correct in all respects except that it carries a very unsual "script" set of numbers the style of which I have never seen before. It would be interesting if other members had M1/27 marked badges of any type in their collections to compare the style of the numbers.

Richard V

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Richard, here is a Party membership badge from my collection from the same maker.
Cheers, Ade.