OPINIONS needed on 2 Gautag Munchen tinnies

[KC1]

Would appreciate and comments surrounding the 2 SS Gautag Munchen tinnies I picked up recently. The cleaner looking had to be re-invigorated as you could not read any of the lettering on the badge nor see the swas. I generally do not clean them but this one I had to.

Thanks for looking.


1a

[KC1]

1b

[KC1]

2a

[KC1]

2b

[torstenbel]

opinions about these are very much devided ... unless I missed something .... as far as I am concerned, I think that these are phantasy fakes and that these never existed in real life, but I am prepared to be convinced otherwise, if anyone has cast iron evidence to the contrary ... Cheers, Torsten.

[Gregorio Torres]

I had allways listen that these are fantasy badges.
Sorry.
Greg

[redline09]

wow, these are pretty good fakes.

[KC1]

I can't dispute your opinions but I have some questions.

For my edification, how and what has determined these to be fakes? Not that I disagree with your statements but do we know what basis or grounds to determine this tinnie a fake? The forum members that have the Tieste publication of TR tinnies know that he has this published as TR tinnie (page 324) yet when I scour the past threads on this particular tinnie there is no substantiated evidence that this is or is not a period piece. I also realize that publications of all TR related materials are known to include fakes/reproductions.

I would rather characterize that the decision to "mark" this tinnie as fake or fantasy by forum members is more "consensus by committee" than an actual fact based decision. Don't get me wrong, I am not condeming the process but when I look at this tinnie as compared to others of pre '45 period types I see similar constuction and matrial used. Does anyone else not see this?

Can forum members who have this tinnie recall when they first took ownership or when they first saw this tinine come onto the market. Does Richard Tieste have any further knowledge regarding this tinnie? Anything out there to establish a possible timeline?

I am sure we can further debate these points and I think we should. I know there are limited resources surrounding true provenance of tinnies other than what we learn from each other and the publications we have at hand but having these tinnies in hand and looking them over in comparison to "known approved" tinnies is very hard for me to see any differences.

Thoughts?

[torstenbel]

wow, these are pretty good fakes.

this is just my opinion: there are far too many of them about and , as far as I am concerned I have never heard of any SS Gautag and I do not think that the quality of this particular tinnie is good enough for the SS in 1933. I see them being offered quite regularly ---> too regularly and as far as evidence for these being fakes goes, I have no evidence ... however, if these are genuine, then it should be relatively easy to find some sort of evidence to support this (and I do not mean their inclusion in any collector guidebooks, no matter how good these books otherwise might be) ... a starting point for me would be for someone to proof that there was indeed any such event like a 1933 SS Gautag in Muenchen ... finding evidence that this event did indeed take place would go a long way toward showing that this badge is not a phantasy for me ,,, otherwise, I am afraid .... I just don't believe it .... but then again, this is only my opinion. Cheers, Torsten.

[torstenbel]

just been searching around the internet a little and the only evidence that I can find for a 1933 SS Gautag having taken place in Muenchen ist this particular tinnie of which there are a good few available for sale, including this site selling fakes, who is offering the badge for US$25.95 .. http://northerngoodies.com/store/item/ns_0351.html how many would you like? .. admittedly, I only spent a couple of mins doing a quick scan of the hits I got and maybe I missed something vital ??? ... Cheers, Torsten.

[KC1]

Torsten,

I can't argue your logic and you are most likely correct but whether $25 or $250 - I want to better understand when they started to hit the market. It just seems unfathomable that a tinnie would generate enough money as a reproduction. Am I wrong? It's not like it was a uniform, visor, helmet, EK1, KC or some other higher end item.

I don't want to belabor this subject but can anyone recall what year they first saw this tinnie?

[John Pepera]

First introduced about ten years ago at a MAX show by Johann Floch from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region>Austria</st1:country-region>. He was wholesaling them to dealers (under the table) for $10.00 each.


Regardless of perceived quality, materials, with or absent of period substantiation, stories or fairy tales and there is no“consensus by committee”


The are all fantasy pieces and 100% bad!

[torstenbel]

Hi John,

thank you very much ... that should clear this up ... I hope ...

Dan, I am sorry that the two badges you have turn out to be fake ... the very first time I saw this badge a while ago, I thought immediately that it was a phantasy and prior to your thread it has been offered to me as an original badge by people that normally know what they are talking about and I also know some very advanced collectors who firmly believe it to be genuine, but I could never convince them otherwise and this is why I immediately pounced on your thread to try and clear up once and for all where this badge is from ... do you have some sort of comeback with the badges? Can you return them to whoever you got them from? Cheers, Torsten.

[KC1]

First introduced about ten years ago at a MAX show by Johann Floch from Austria. He was wholesaling them to dealers (under the table) for $10.00 each.

John -

thanks for the shout out ... this is the information I was looking for, nothing more or nothing less! If this was in another previous thread then I apologize for the miss but if not then it is here now.

Torsten - appreciate your patience on this topic. To your point, it isn't about the money (I received bartering at a Gun show this past weekend) - it's about learning and getting substantiated facts so that we can learn, share, and pass this information on to others. Isn't the first time I received a post war piece and most likely won't be the last but the more you know the less likely it will occur!

[buhrkall]

Would appreciate and comments surrounding the 2 SS Gautag Munchen tinnies I picked up recently. The cleaner looking had to be re-invigorated as you could not read any of the lettering on the badge nor see the swas. I generally do not clean them but this one I had to.

Thanks for looking.


1a

RARE SS Badge "GAUTAG" OF MONACO IN 1933

Prezzo: Price: Euro 140,00 Euro 140.00 - cod. nr. - Cod. Nr. 12139 12139
Bellissimo distintivo commemorativo delle "Gau-Tag" ( Giornate del Gau ) svoltesi nei giorni 8 - 9 e 10 novembre 1933 nella provincia di Munchen-Oberbayern , riservato ai membri delle SS . Beautiful commemorative badge of the "Gau-Tag" (day of Gau) held on 8 - 9 and November 10, 1933 in the Province of Munich and Upper Bavaria, reserved for members of the SS. I Gau erano le province del Terzo Reich e ne esistevano 42 dentro e fuori il territorio originale germanico. The Gau were the provinces of the Third Reich and there are 42 inside and outside the original German. Ogni anno si celebrava in ciascuna delle province il Gautag, cioè il giorno del NSDAP ( Partito Nazionalsocialista) alla presenza del Gauleiter ( la più alta carica del NSDAP a livello locale, responsabile di ciò che accadeva in materia politica, economica e civile) con parate, riunioni, avvenimenti sportivi, ecc. Each year takes place in each of the provinces Gautag, the day of the NSDAP (Nazi Party) in the presence of Gauleiter (the highest office of the NSDAP at the local level responsible for what happened in the political, economic and civilian) with parades , meetings, sporting events, etc..
Nel 1933 il partito nazista aveva appena vinto le elezioni e Hitler intese celebrare a Monaco, con una colossale manifestazione, la marcia tra la birreria Bürgerbräukeller, attraverso il ponte Ludwig, fino alla Feldherrnhalle che tanto miseramente si era conclusa dieci anni prima. In 1933 the Nazi party had just won the election and Hitler intended to celebrate Monaco, with a colossal event, running between the brewery Bürgerbräukeller, Ludwig across the bridge until the Feldherrnhalle that so miserably had ended ten years earlier. Questa nuova marcia del 9 novembre 1933 divenne da quel momento una ricorrenza annuale, celebrata a Monaco dal Gauleiter Adolf Wagner che ne fu anche il Maestro di Cerimonia. This is a brand of 9 November 1933 he became from that moment will recur annually celebrated in Monaco by Gauleiter Adolf Wagner who was also the master of ceremonies.
Nello stesso giorno 100 reclute della SS-Leibenstandarte "Adolf Hitler" e 50 della "Stabswache Roehm" prestarono il giuramento di fedeltà ad Hitler, cerimonia che pure si ripeterà ogni anno . The same day 100 recruits of the SS-Leibenstandarte "Adolf Hitler" and 50 of the "Stabswache Roehm" taken the oath of allegiance to Hitler, even though the ceremony will be repeated every year.

???