Rzm M1/123

[burgerhaus]

I beleive we were under the impression that M1/123 was an unknown maker when we were discussing the student badges a while back. While leafing thru my Heering-Husken book today I happened to notice an RZM list compilation and lo and behold it states M1/123 as Petz & Koch, Unterreichenbach. Maybe my eyes are deceiving me so perhaps someone could do a double-check. I am using the 1997 edition page 389. Have a nice weekend. Robert

[torstenbel]

I beleive we were under the impression that M1/123 was an unknown maker when we were discussing the student badges a while back. While leafing thru my Heering-Husken book today I happened to notice an RZM list compilation and lo and behold it states M1/123 as Petz & Koch, Unterreichenbach. Maybe my eyes are deceiving me so perhaps someone could do a double-check. I am using the 1997 edition page 389. Have a nice weekend. Robert

Robert, this is the thread, where the Altherrenbund M1/123 was shown: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=60720 and you are sure right about the entry in HH... Cheers, Torsten.

[Don Scowen]

I have the same edition, that's definitely what it says.....

Cheers
Don

[David North]

M1/33 ?

Does anybody know who RZM M1/33 was ?

Regards,

David

[James Noble]

Good caught Robert.
That show you should never rely on just one source for information.

[Don Scowen]

Does anybody know who RZM M1/33 was ?

Regards,

David

Hi David,

Good to see you over here. Unfortunately, Hüsken doesn't provide the answer to that conundrum.

Cheers
Don

[David North]

Hope springs eternal Don !

As you know, Chad on the B and B Forum has a rather splendid HJ with a RZM 33 stamping, although none of us know who the maker is.

Regards,

David

[Don Scowen]

Hope springs eternal Don !

As you know, Chad on the B and B Forum has a rather splendid HJ with a RZM 33 stamping, although none of us know who the maker is.

Regards,

David

As I mentioned in my last post, there isn't a listing for M1/33, but I do have a name for an M4/33..... It's J.D. von Hagen G.m.b.H., Iserlohn, this is courtesy of Stephen Lautens book. Do you think it could be a contender?

Cheers
Don

[David North]

Don

I had better make this response my swan song, as I am fast developing a cuckoo in the nest complex here - if you would pardon the ornithological metaphors.

Unfortunately, the RZM M4/33 allocation does not correlate to RZM 33 - although I wish !

Here is an extract from a thread on the B and B Forum by Karl Ortmann, who as you know, is technically most adept on these matters.

"Although there doesn't seem to be proof positive around for it (i.e., none of us have yet found the directive saying so), I do think we can take for granted that the numbers of first-generation RZM licenses, consisting of just a single or double-digit number (the marking being the 'RZM' signet followed by the appropriate number) were in the end allocated to the 'M1' category in April 1935 when the final licencing system was introduced, at least for those companies who (a) held a first-generation licence, (b) made buckles, and (c) were also licenced by the RZM to produce insignia under the final system. It works for Assmann (RZM 17 = M1/17), for Overhoff (RZM 24 = M1/24), for Berg & Nolte (RZM 36 = M1/36) etc. etc. All of these got new numbers for their buckle production under the diversified scheme (KH/M4) but retained their original licence number for M1. Of course, it won't work for a first-generation licencee who was authorised to make buckles, but not insignia. These can, however, only have been a small minority.

In the light of the above, RZM 59 should be M1/59, Paul Cramer, Lüdenscheid".

Regards,

David



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[sjl]

Good for Robert in seeing the M1/123 as Petz & Koch, Unterreichenbach. I don't know where Heering-Husken found it, as it doesn't appear in the standard lists. I note that M1/174 is the firm of Petz & Lorenz, Unterreichenbach, which must have been a successor company (after Petz got rid of Herr Koch), which means M1/123 was retired and omitted from subsequent RZM lists.

When it is finally discovered, I'm sure M1/33 will also be a company that either merged with another or went out of business early on.

An RZM number with the logo ("Schutzzeichen") alone means a piece made after the company numbering licenses came in (begining 1935) and the first "M" prefixes were introduced at the end of March, 1935. During this short period the RZM flirted briefly with prefixes that were hardly used, and now rarely seen:

MA = Metallabzeichen (metal badges & insignia)
UE = Uniformeffekten (uniform fittings)
KH - Koppelschloss (buckles)
etc.

Most manufacturers just used the RZM logo and number instead of the above prefixes for this short transition period. After March, 1935 they started using the "M" prefixes for metal items (M1 for insignia, M4 for buckles, M9 for tinnies, etc), keeping their existing company license numbers.

Companies had to apply for separate RZM licenses for each category, and the numbers, as David says, don't match up across categories.

By the way, thanks for the plug for my RZM book - I'll update future editions to include M1/123.

Stephen

Don

I had better make this response my swan song, as I am fast developing a cuckoo in the nest complex here - if you would pardon the ornithological metaphors.

Unfortunately, the RZM M4/33 allocation does not correlate to RZM 33 - although I wish !

Here is an extract from a thread on the B and B Forum by Karl Ortmann, who as you know, is technically most adept on these matters.

"Although there doesn't seem to be proof positive around for it (i.e., none of us have yet found the directive saying so), I do think we can take for granted that the numbers of first-generation RZM licenses, consisting of just a single or double-digit number (the marking being the 'RZM' signet followed by the appropriate number) were in the end allocated to the 'M1' category in April 1935 when the final licencing system was introduced, at least for those companies who (a) held a first-generation licence, (b) made buckles, and (c) were also licenced by the RZM to produce insignia under the final system. It works for Assmann (RZM 17 = M1/17), for Overhoff (RZM 24 = M1/24), for Berg & Nolte (RZM 36 = M1/36) etc. etc. All of these got new numbers for their buckle production under the diversified scheme (KH/M4) but retained their original licence number for M1. Of course, it won't work for a first-generation licencee who was authorised to make buckles, but not insignia. These can, however, only have been a small minority.

In the light of the above, RZM 59 should be M1/59, Paul Cramer, Lüdenscheid".

Regards,

David



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