I cannot comment on the hat or the grouping but in the 1970s, almost all the "fakes" were being produced by tailors etc. who made original items in Europe. As late as the 1980s, tunics were being made from left over stocks or all original materials in the exact same style of WWII period clothing. I see these now offered as originals fairly often and they look almost perfect. Copies coming out of Asia at that time and sold through Collectors Armory etc. were made with modern materials and were obvious.
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I'm afraid that's a problem we all face daily in this hobby, Johnny -- the fact that no one from the victorious Allies went around to each of the badge makers, cutlers, tailors, printers, etc. to make absolutely certain that any firm that produced it's products prior to May 8, 1945 in Germany or Austria had ceased to manufacture those same products after that date! These were not "fakes," per se, because they were turned out with the same dies, patterns, materials, etc. that were approved and used prior to the last day of WWII. That's where provenance comes in very handy, but unfortunately so many of the TR artifacts sold or traded to Allied Occupation soldiers were accepted on face value and today are fully integrated into countless collections. It's a fact of life, I'm afraid...
Br. JamesComment
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Sharkey 1807, technically I suppose you are right. When I left China, I went into Hong Kong...but it certainly wasn't like China in those days.
Mr. Chen is a native of Hong Kong and he and I corresponded long before
Hong Kong reverted to the control of China in 1997.
Being a longtime avid collector even in those days, I think he would have been aware of Third Reich era uniforms being copied there. I have never heard of that. Pakistan maybe...but not Hong Kong.
I think people in Hong Kong had far more productive things to do than to copy Hitler's uniform for Roger Steele. Just my opinion.
Although I am American, I was in mainlaind China before Mr. Chen ever went there.Don BibleComment
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Even if it wasn't possible to have fakes made in China at the time just the thought of it scares me. When your talking a million dollar buy I wouldn't want any negative possibilitys. I'm thinking that's why there hasn't been a line of people looking to buy this group.
Does anyone know if it will be at the SOS again this year?Comment
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There is a lot of mis information in this thread.
The uniform was stolen frrom the Lt. by his ex wife who sold it to Mohawk Arms in the middle to late 1960s.
A law suit followed by the Lt. and ended up involving the State of Bavaria as all of Hitler's property belonged to the German state after the war.
Facing press involvement over Hitler items, Bavaria settled out of court and Mohawk and the Lt. settled ( Mohawk wound up buying the uniform twice in the end).
This case was listed in my Business Law text used in my Pharmacy school course.Comment
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I remember the case from College and the Hitler items are legit.Originally posted by Ron Weinand View PostComment
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BTW: I had the Blood Order, while on the uniform, in my hands in the early 1980s when it was in the possession of Mohawk Arms and it is truly unique. The number one is engraved in an unusual fashion and was a surprise to me at the time. No doubt on this one IMO.Comment
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Before I would spend $1,000,000 plus on something I would have to have something more than a certificate from Mohawk Arms - or CG.
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With this kind of history to back up this grouping( Business Law text), who can challenge its authentically?Originally posted by Ron Weinand View Post
BTW, I am sure Mr. Bible must have fun in visiting the Great Wall of China back in 1983.Comment
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Obama says it's good?
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Ron has accurately described the provenance of this set. Those who still wish to doubt it's authenticity can do so but it can not change the facts that all of us active in the time it came out know to be true. I doubt that there are many buyers out there for this set at $1,000,000.Originally posted by Ron Weinand View Post
Thanks for accurately setting the facts straight Ron.Comment
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Thanks Ron I was hoping to hear from someone who held this group in hand. Hearing that the blood order was numbered 1 confirms what I was thinking. Wish we had a pic of the BO would like to see the strange number one on it.
Is there more to the group then the one set? I was thinking I heard somewhere there was a couple sets of medals.Comment
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If there is, it did not originate with the grouping being discussed.Originally posted by blitzkrieg gsd View PostComment
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So the Lt. Only brought back one set of awards that was on his tunic as he found it? That was the way I understood it happened also. Still I'm glad to hear from you since you have hands on knowledge of the group. But I keep hearing from a group of guys the LT. Took a couple sets of awards.
How do you guys think the SS detachment that was assigned to destroy all of Hitlers stuff missed this. I'm still can't wrap my mind around how that happens. Or how this group could have even been left behind by his assistants in the first place. Don't know if you guys do this or not may just be my ADD lol. But when i look at any group where I'm told a story about how it was liberated I want to make sure it's doable. Does it make since that this John Doe could have gotten this group the way the seller says? That's the question that I always ask myself in that situation. To me a piece with a good story is always worth more then one without it.Comment
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I have not spoken with Ray about this in decades but if I remember correctly the hat, perhaps all of it, was found in a police station. I will ask Ray to verify this next time I see him. So, don't hold me to this until I verify it.
Merry Christmas!
BobComment
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