SA shirt, belt & cross belt - ok?

[sgstandard]

Shirt

You're going in the wrong direction. A shirt with bi-color piping on the collar is PRE-1938/1939, and would have either gold or silver buttons, depending on the Gruppe. Bi-color piping predates the SA regulation that changed ALL buttons to silver. I don't doubt that the unit may be Niederrhein (with the wrong buttons), but what you need to do is find out if there was also a unit from Berlin with the same numbers. Since the collar piping is intact, the correct, early shoulderboard is intact, it seems unlikely someone would have switched or added the buttons. Always possible, of course, and if they WERE replaced, silver buttons are much easier to find than gold. It's always possible that only the collar piping is original, and everything else is added post-war. But most times, "put-together" shirts are missing that collar piping, which is very difficult to find. Bottom line - I'd try to find out if the same Reserve unit numbers also existed for Berlin. If so, you're home free. The shirt, as is, is entirely correct for Pre-1938/1939 Berlin Brandenburg if such a unit existed. If there's proof that no such unit existed for Berlin B., then either the wrong-color buttons were replaced, or the whole ensemble is "put-together".

[wilhelm Saris]

as far as my information goes there is only a 193 at Niederrhein, which is Moers, and not located at Berlin-Brandenburg!
My information comes from lists from the Oberste SA-Führung.

[TobyR]

Hello Toby,
Yes. Until 41, I think, the buttons, belt fittings, belt hooks, and cap button were either silver or gold, depending on the group. After 41 or so, the buttons and fittings were silver colored for all groups (except Marine SA) in an effort to eliminate wasted production efforts.
Erich

Thank you answering Erich.

All the best,
Toby.

[laurens]

My opinion is that the shirt is a put together. We've seen that more in the past with SA. They know the color-combinations, but not the unit-locations!

Note the unit tab on the shirt. The numbers are done in flatt stitch instead of the earlier chain stitch. This flatt stitch replaced the chain stitch in July 1939. Together with the new stitching , the new second pattern shoulderboards were introduced.

This shirt than should have the second pattern shoulderboard...

For me to many red flags!

[sgstandard]

Shirt

Assuming the SA Fuhrung list is complete, (which I don't doubt), IMO, there's a fairly good chance the shirt may be a blank shirt that was put together. The rank tab litzen is stained and frayed, but the shirt is mint. The tabs don't appear to have sunk into the shirt material, but that's sometimes hard to tell. You could look to see if there are extraneous threads, indicating other tabs may have been on the shirt, but if it started as a blank shirt, there wouldn't be any. What to do? You could always just change the buttons, which would make the shirt correct, but the doubt that would always linger - Is this a post-war concoction with original components? Personally, that doubt would bother me, and I would look for another shirt with no discrepancies. Patience is the key to satisfaction!!

[TobyR]

Thanks for all the comments.

The shirt is in my possession, although it was previously my father's (he passed away earlier this year). I'm pretty certain either my father or myself, bought the shirt via the e-stand some years back. Not that that makes it authentic.

I'm not an expert on SA shirts but I can tell you it is not mint. Looks worn in my opinion.

Best,
Toby.

[sgstandard]

Shirt

I just noticed LAURENS post. He is correct about the "flat" stitching being used on later tabs, but I don't know if that is carved into stone. True, chain-stitching is the norm for early tabs, but I believe that some tabs from the 1933-1938 period were flat-stitched as well. And if the shirt had a 2nd pattern shoulderboard, it would not have bi-color collar piping. The collar piping would be brown/silver or none at all. If the Germans had spent less time changing their uniform regulations, they may have won the war.

[sgstandard]

Shirt

TobyR - Our condolences - sorry for your loss.

[laurens]

Absolute! Take care Toby!

[Seigfried]

I would like to thank all who have taken time on this.

I have asked for more photos to be posted, hopefully ones which will be more illuminating and therefore decisive.

The more I read Angolia's 'Cloth Insignia of the NSDAP & SA' the more discrepancies I see. The 'chain stitch' is obvious now, but I was unaware of the brown/silver piping.

If the Mods hadn't deleted the sales thread so quickly (it was only on 'hold') then this situation may have been averted.

[sgstandard]

Shirt

No problem - we're ALL learning all the time. We're only too glad to help our SA brethern . I suggested to LAURENS that the "flat-stitch" being only used on later tabs was not carved in stone. Angolia: page 193.

[laurens]

No problem - we're ALL learning all the time. We're only too glad to help our SA brethern . I suggested to LAURENS that the "flat-stitch" being only used on later tabs was not carved in stone. Angolia: page 193.

The information comes from the SA-Verordnungsblatt, wich I call 'carved in stone'.

Of course you'll find exceptions to those rules, as always.

In fact this shirt could be true!

[Seigfried]

A shirt with bi-color piping on the collar is PRE-1938/1939, and would have either gold or silver buttons, depending on the Gruppe. Bi-color piping predates the SA regulation that changed ALL buttons to silver. I don't doubt that the unit may be Niederrhein (with the wrong buttons), but what you need to do is find out if there was also a unit from Berlin with the same numbers. Since the collar piping is intact, the correct, early shoulderboard is intact, it seems unlikely someone would have switched or added the buttons. Always possible, of course, and if they WERE replaced, silver buttons are much easier to find than gold. It's always possible that only the collar piping is original, and everything else is added post-war. But most times, "put-together" shirts are missing that collar piping, which is very difficult to find. Bottom line - I'd try to find out if the same Reserve unit numbers also existed for Berlin. If so, you're home free. The shirt, as is, is entirely correct for Pre-1938/1939 Berlin Brandenburg if such a unit existed. If there's proof that no such unit existed for Berlin B., then either the wrong-color buttons were replaced, or the whole ensemble is "put-together".

I have had a good look at the pics again - the shirt shows evidence of wear (stains to one arm, small hole, faded RZM label), although in exc condition, it isn't 'mint'. I'd initially thought that it's condition was due to it being a reserve unit and maybe not worn so much.

It has the correct B/W piping for pre-1938/39 (slight discolouration).
It has the correct silver buttons for a Berlin shirt pre-1940/41. If these had been changed from gold in 1940/41 surely the epaulette would have been too? (it hasn't).

The bars on the rank tab are slightly discoloured (consistent with the shirt's general state).

The only 'issue' then with this shirt is the unit tab - I do not think that the "whole ensemble is put-together".

The unit tab looks in better condition, is incorrect for Berlin (the only 193 is Niederrhein according to Oberste SA-Führung) and isn't chain stitched (post July 1939 according to SA-Verordnungsblatt).

As the tabs were only meant to be tacked on for easy pre-laundry removal, they would not surely have 'sunk' into the material.

As the sticking point seems to be the tabs, I have asked for more pics of these, both sides.

It is easy to be convinced back and forth by different views so I've done my best to pick out the facts.

Comments!?