SA Gold Grade Cloth Insignia

[RobN]

SA Gold Cloth Badge

Who knows! It is the same size as the insignia that was utilized on the SA-armband. Until a picture of it in use or an order surfaces, it will all be speculation. I just tend to believe that it could have been made during the time of the Third Reich. As Wilhelm Saris noted, all unofficially sanctioned types of this badge were to be removed from stores and not used on uniforms etc. Perhaps a stash was uncovered after the war and the pieces made there way out. This style of insignia was used on the armbands/brassards of the SA- Wehrmannschaften (SA Military Training Defense Groups); the armbands were meant to be worn with civilian clothing. So the "SA sport armband" (as it has come to be known over the years) was never actually related to sports activities at all.
On the other hand, this ornate gold SA insignia could be post war; I just do not believe we can, with certainty, make an absolute pronouncement of it's date of origin at this time.

[Dmv]

Ron, it's the construction that tells it's origin: it has a gauze on the back that also is used on US wool patches and german patches made by Patch King for collectors at the end of ww2 through the 50's.

[RobN]

SA cloth badge in gold

Dmv,
What about the navy patch that I show with the SA gold patch? Do you think it is a fake? Just curious. Many of the KM badges that I see for sale appear to have mesh backings. Is it the appearance of the mesh backing that is the distinguishing factor or the fact that the patch has any mesh backing? If other members have examples of these post war copies, I would like to see them so that I can be better informed. Thanks!

[Darin S.]

Sigrune made by "Patch King". Post war item, one of these is currently offered at one of the "good" dealers as a period item. In fact, the very same one that I returned for a refund after being shown this item offered in a period catalog from Patch King.

[Erich B.]

Agree--and the KM insignia posted don't have a mesh backing. The backings look like linen or cotton interfacing material similar to the buckram used to reinforce collar tabs.

[Rick C]

First thing I might point out just for fun would be that the insignia’s size precludes this being a cloth version of the aforementioned sports badge thus it had to be intended for other purposes. A cloth version was shown (in Bevo) and, I submit, there’s a reason for an ‘official’ badge being in Bevo - it can be washed and survive while an embroidered “badge” will not survive multiple washings.

The posted example from “Patch King” or Acme patch is presented to show a similar “mesh” (which is really a gauze) that it’s posited is a sign of postwar manufacture. I first thing I observe is that there’s just no comparison between the Sig Rune example embroidery and that of the two sports insignia presented. The technology utilized and quality of workmanship resulting is, frankly, night & day. Second, is it not true that period embroidery often uses a gauze backing to strengthen wool ‘felt’ insignia which doesn't have the strength of wool badgecloth? Isn’t similar gauze used in making certain Luft insignia and, indeed, SS tabs?

Does anyone else notice that the Patch King/Acme example only uses a (wider mesh) gauze and only directly under the embroidery whereas the examples presented differ in the use and extent of the gauze? Further, was Patch King/Acme known for using celleon at any time or was, in fact, their quality workmanship limited to cheap dyed cotton thread?

Since, clearly, the examples presented are NOT intended to be an ‘official’ sports badge (due to the size and background color) what could this ‘insignia’ be used for? What might the nazis of the day used that might’ve had a ‘red’ background that this may have been created to ‘blend into’? Darn it, their flags, banners & pennants and armbands were red! Might this insignia have been used to affix to unit banners or pennants of ‘groups’ who’s members had all been winners of the gold sports badge?

Going back to Patch King/Acme out of Brooklyn, since we can still find a whole bunch of their mass produced crap made in the early days, where are the masses of these insignia? Why don’t we see more of them? I would say that finding Field Bishop collar tabs (regularly) is FAR easier than finding one of these insignia.

[Dmv]

Dmv,
What about the navy patch that I show with the SA gold patch? Do you think it is a fake? Just curious. Many of the KM badges that I see for sale appear to have mesh backings. Is it the appearance of the mesh backing that is the distinguishing factor or the fact that the patch has any mesh backing? If other members have examples of these post war copies, I would like to see them so that I can be better informed. Thanks!

The Navy patch is original ww2 German manufacture.
It’s this specific wide and white mesh backing that’s used that points to Patch King i.m.o.
Compare with others and you’ll see what I mean:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=patch+king
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=patch+king
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=patch+king

I have never encountered this specific mesh backing om ww2 German produced insignia. Other types of backing yes, but not this.
Also some PK insignia can be pretty hard to find, not all are commonly encountered.

[Darin S.]

You can find that exact Patch King item I posted at a dealers site in Canada, being listed as genuine. No mention of it being a reproduction in the listing. Not too difficult to find, there were some at the SOS from what I was told by an attendee as well.

[RobN]

SA Gold Cloth Badge

I appreciate being able to view the work of the "Patch King". I must say that I see little similarity between the SA badge and the work of the Patch King whose badges IMO are shabbily constructed. I see much more similarities between the SA badge and the Third Reich era badges that have mesh-like backings. If I had to choose one way or the other, my vote would be cast in favor of 'authentic'. Here is a KM badge from Bill Shea's site. It has the larger square mesh-like backing. I wonder, do the Patch King badges glow? The SA badge does not. Anyway, that is my 2 cents!

[RobN]

SA Gold Cloth Badge

Rear views of larger square mesh-like backings.

[Fred Green]

Hello,

IMHO the SA sports patch posted is a Patch King manufactured patch. The first 2 tells are that it is not embroidered on badge cloth and the white gauze back. Both are tell tell signs of a PK patch. The ones I have don't glow. PK started making repro german insignis even before WWII had ended. I couldn't find my PK 45th Division but it has the same quality embroidery with gold thread as the SA patch with the exact same bad red base material and the same white gauze on the back.

The KM patch from Bill Shea's site doesn't instill confidence in me either as a Third Reich manufactured patch. The execution of the design is lacking in my opinion and the white gauze back. The embroidery is not consistant with a PK patch. The PK patch usually was thickly embroidered not a single stitch as this KM patch is.

I have seen a grey netting backing similiar to the PK patches used on late war WWII Heer post 1940 specialty patches and some DAK specialty patches and rank pips. I have never seen a white gauze, as on this sports patch, used on a TR Era patch.

Fred

[Dmv]

I second Fred's post and don't like the last posted Navy patch.

[Rick C]

More votes for a post-war Patch King/Acme patch - but, once again, I might ask if anyone can point to or show me an example of a Patch King piece with the quality of celleon embroidery as this?

I would submit that just because some postwar outfit manufactured reproductions with ‘similar characteristics’ (mesh/gauze backing) that anything observed must then be a product of Acme fakers is just nonsense. Here’s a mesh/gauze backing that is said to be fine by the respondents participating (http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...10653#poststop). Here’s a another (http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...53027#poststop) with a mesh/gauze backing that was, again, blessed by the thread participants. Were one to perform more than a cursory search, I’m sure it would be found that this type of mesh/gauze backing was often utilized on wool felt insignia in order to strengthen it to the levels of wool badgecloth.

So, again, please, show me an example of a Patch King piece with the quality of celleon embroidery as this.

[Fred Green]

Hello,

Neither of the examples of backing material are the same as the backing material on the SA patch. The backing material on the luft specialty patch is the grey gauze type backing that I referred to in my post. Notice the color difference and the uniformity of the material. The backing on the POA patch is almost a cloth. The weave is that close together.

This is just gold thread embroidery on a low quality wool type base material. This is not celleon or cello. That is a total different type of material.

Fred

[Rick C]

"Neither of the examples of backing material are the same as the backing material on the SA patch. The backing material on the luft specialty patch is the grey gauze type backing that I referred to in my post. Notice the color difference and the uniformity of the material. The backing on the POA patch is almost a cloth. The weave is that close together."

Are we to presume there was only one supplier of gauze/mesh to the insignia manufacturers throughout the Greater Reich that made but one gauge and color of mesh/gauze? Just wondering...