A couple of Cultural items

[Steve T]

What a wild statement - it is even self-contradictory.

Following this "applied logic" we would have to come to the conclusion that Allach would also have been just a shop that sold porcelain and ceramics.

How ridiculous would all that be?

So if - just to take one example of the DHW production range - the tapestries were not invented by DHW why do you search for them via your website?

And present them in a section defined by yourself as "NS and SS cultural items"?

It's a common sense view, not contradictory in my opinion.

Following this "applied logic" we would have to come to the conclusion that Allach would also have been just a shop that sold porcelain and ceramics.

How ridiculous would all that be?

It's an opinion, a view, it's not an applied logic at all, and I wouldn't presume others would reach the same conclusions as you. Why bring Allach into it? Unlike DHW, Allach was an SS enterprise producing it's own product. Even so, if you took the Allach marks off most of the product range you would have no real clue as to whether it was SS or not, ie, birds, animals and new-baroque kitsch. Anyway, why not stick to the point, tapestry, instead of extrapolating a logic you believe you see to other companies. The ridiculous part is you bringing such ideas forward to suggest my thoughts on tapestry would lead to such an opinion with regard to Allach.

So if - just to take one example of the DHW production range - the tapestries were not invented by DHW why do you search for them via your website?

To reiterate, tapestries were not invented by DHW. I search for them via my website because I'm looking new for factual information and I like them, whether they were sold by DHW or not.

And present them in a section defined by yourself as "NS and SS cultural items"?

I don't find it confusing. As I have already said in my post;

That the tapestries fitted the culture of the TR and of the SS was just a bonus for the suppliers, they were making such product anyway. Yes it developed as time went on and some designs were influenced by the fashion of the time and naturally a few appeared with NS symbolism, runes, swastika and so forth.

So if you read my words in the correct context then the category I happen to put tapestry in for my website makes perfect sense. Only the swastika or runes on a tapestry would make todays German aware of a tapestry being NS but to the the Nazi buyer of the period going into the DHW shop or any other furniture shop , these tapestry were perfectly suitable 'nazi' decor for the period, but still in most cases not instrinsically nazi.

Anyway, stepping back a few posts perhaps you missed my question to you as you have failed to answer it. You said , "SS cultural items such as tapestries" so you think these tapestries like Lebensbaum, Weltkreis and such like are SS items?

I'd like to know what brings you to think that these tapestries are SS, if you do? We read this same thread here and probably have some of the same material in our collections and yet you see to disagree. Do you have any period information that has not been shown here to tell you they are SS?

[Thorsten B.]

You seem to know little about the history of Allach and DHW.

You think they cannot be compared?

Why not? - Finally they were both SS entities, so what?

The DHW upfront even more clear and earlier than Allach.

Do you really believe that Allach produced everything on it´s own? - No, they didn´t and couldn´t, it´s that simple.

And no - I don´t have to make everybody smart since you already got your own opinion and as everybody else you´re entitled to share it.

But don´t expect me to agree to it.

[Anthony Evans]

Just because the SS did use some items by the respective groups doesn't mean that all items were purely SS.

Wall hangings were displayed in the Weitzel which helped sell them and generate money for blut und boden. But as seen here they were produced by Germans for Germans, helping promote nationalism and generate money back into the reich.

Another example not all items made by allach were SS in culture even though the factory was on and ran by the SS. They made items for collectors to collect so it would help generate money, granted there were a few items made strictly for SS. Or for that matter not all SS items that are porcelain were made by allach as seen by the himmler plate collection (i'm going off memory and apolgize if i have the name wrong) that has the gold edge with odal runes in it. I believe that was made by a bavarian company.

[Thorsten B.]

The intention of Allach was exactly NOT about earning money, it was about culture.

If you have a different opinion then it´s perhaps time to try to understand the ideological background resulting in a cultural agenda and the way how to let it become reality - try to understand how Himmler and his inner circle were thinking and acting.

Money for "getting Allach going" was provided by different - and interesting - sources.

And regarding the DHW:

Their organigram was - also due to the effort to let their ideology become functioning reality - a different one than Allach.

There was not only one or two production places just because it was not meant to be that way, ok?

Many regionally well-known experts of craftsmanship were contracted and step by step they were guided to produce a range of products which should enable the Germans to get - mainly traditionally handcrafted - products of high quality as typical examples of germanic design for decorating their households, for the daily life, for their culture, in short:

To enable them to live "appropriate to their species" - that´s all it is.

And it´s not the first time we discussed that within this thread.

The highlights of their production range were - as practized ideology - of course and had to be inspired by selected pieces of old traditional german pieces of furniture and interieur design but their were not just copies of them.

The responsible managers and designers of the DHW created an own ideological style, a germanic way of living as it was meant to be.

They simply were on their own.

[Steve T]

You seem to know little about the history of Allach and DHW.

You think they cannot be compared?

Why not? - Finally they were both SS entities, so what?

The DHW upfront even more clear and earlier than Allach.

Do you really believe that Allach produced everything on it´s own? - No, they didn´t and couldn´t, it´s that simple.

And no - I don´t have to make everybody smart since you already got your own opinion and as everybody else you´re entitled to share it.

But don´t expect me to agree to it.

You just dilute the point of the discussion with respect to tapestry by going off on a tangential rant as usual.

There is no risk of you making us smart with such posts as above, don't worry about that! I presume you think you could make us 'smart' from your retort but you again failed to answer or even give an opinion on whether or not the tapestry are 'SS tapestries'

[Thorsten B.]

If you feel not comfy with your tapestries which you hunted so eagerly you probably should just stop collecting them.

Especially those two with the open sunwheels - what about selling them to me?

[Steve T]

If you feel not comfy with your tapestries which you hunted so eagerly you probably should just stop collecting them.

Especially those two with the open sunwheels - what about selling them to me?

More piffle from you Thorsten I'm very comfortable with the tapestries in my collection thank you. I don't have to believe they are 'SS Tapestries' to enjoy them. I particularly like the vertical repeat open sun-wheel pattern.

[Thorsten B.]

More piffle from you Thorsten I'm very comfortable with the tapestries in my collection thank you. I don't have to believe they are 'SS Tapestries' to enjoy them. I particularly like the vertical repeat open sun-wheel pattern.

Well, I am glad that you also seem to enjoy all the exclusive NS/SS cultural pieces of which I have had the occasional opportunity to sell you.

[Steve T]

Well, I am glad that you also seem to enjoy all the exclusive NS/SS cultural pieces of which I have had the occasional opportunity to sell you.

The scholle plate from you is nice, most plates are fairly average quality but that one is quite well done and the most decorative with all the fruit on the front.

Here's a stunner, you will recognise this one from auction. It looked very scruffy in the sellers images and water damaged but after new polish it's turned out to be a really nice piece and absolutely huge! The biggest plate I have at 50cm in diameter and one piece of oak. Very well carved oak leaf wreath, a wreath in a style similar to that found on badges, awards, oak typically signifying strength and loyalty.

[Steve T]

Just because the SS did use some items by the respective groups doesn't mean that all items were purely SS.

Wall hangings were displayed in the Weitzel which helped sell them and generate money for blut und boden. But as seen here they were produced by Germans for Germans, helping promote nationalism and generate money back into the reich.

Another example not all items made by allach were SS in culture even though the factory was on and ran by the SS. They made items for collectors to collect so it would help generate money, granted there were a few items made strictly for SS. Or for that matter not all SS items that are porcelain were made by allach as seen by the himmler plate collection (i'm going off memory and apolgize if i have the name wrong) that has the gold edge with odal runes in it. I believe that was made by a bavarian company.

Anthony, here is the full tapestry. It was made at the Luebecker Volksschule.

[Capt. R]

what pattern is the one over the couch?

Note the julleuchter and furniture too...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9750333...n/photostream/

[Thorsten B.]

Well, since it is not DHW furniture the visable tapestry might come from a different source as well - although it seems to be also a typical Beiderwand piece.

The wrought iron lamps are obviously from that official designer and manufacturer of leading cultural luminaria as I already introduced it here not long ago.

[Minnesinger]

Here's the tapestry pattern that is shown in SS-Onkel Weitzel's book, obviously this one was made for Herr Weitzels lady friend.

And this was made like that to begin with? Looks like a 'convert' to me.

[Capt. R]

decor

http://www.usmbooks.com/nazi_book_furniture.html

[Martin Frohberg]

http://www.usmbooks.com/nazi_book_furniture.html

Ah, look at that nice SS coat, hat and umbrella! Truly a gem in any collection