3 Deutscher Orden in one lot!!!!! Rarest of The Rare

[Chris Obermeyer]

My dear Chen,

I was wondering when are you going to spend again another MILLION DOLLARS buying fakes....
Believe me, I think it is not fair when people, behind your back, calls you the looser of the century ...I know that one is born every day but...you know

[RonR]

...

[Matthew]

Now back to serious things. I see you collect NSDAP Gau badges and I really need the gold class for the "Gau East Prussia" and "Gau Danzig" can you help me in anyway?
Thanks,
Chris Obermeyer.

I am yet to have a good fortune to come across those two but rest assured- if I stumble upon them- I will provide you with a lead, this way you can add them to your already impressive collection. I am sure they will fit right in.

matt

[Matthew]

Here are few shots of the purportedly Zimmermann made German Order as found on the grounds of their burned out factory. From what I remember the large stash was sold originally by D. Niemann.
Zimmermann was said to supply some decorations to Godet and according to some- also supplied Deumer and others.

Not having the center disc to compare, the eagles seem to be the only intricate details of the piece to compare against. Looking at the piece pictured overall, I have no problems believing the story behind the find but again- just my unsubstantiated opinion.

Perhaps those that have GO's in their collections will be able to provide some comparison photos?
Photo courtesy of emedals.

cheers

Matt

[Matthew]

Eagle details.

cheers

Matt

[Peter J.]

Now that a CCC with cut-out swastika (previously not associated with Zimmermann or any other producer for that matter) also a is said to come from this fire-site, as well the DO, I wonder what the next big surprice will be.

As for the find of the month I vote on the DAO Sonderstufe (although it was in February).

cheers
Peter

[Matthew]

Pages of history are filled with previously unknown artifacts that were discovered as ground found only- at least in the beginning. Much as this one, they are usually met with skepticism but sometimes, they turn out to be originals.
If I was making knockoffs of GO's I would probably finish them and try and cash out big instead of turning them into BBQ victims and sell for what- 1-2k a piece?
It is obvious those were not 'home made' by any stretch and have been known to exist for over a decade. In that time no other specimens of the same surfaced to the best of my knowledge. So we're either dealing with the world's most patient faker or maybe- just maybe- are in fact looking at the real deal..
Hopefully time will tell.

cheers

Matt

[Peter J.]

Matt, wise words as usual, I was merely thinking out loud. The DAO Sonderstufe doesn't seem to catch as much attention, now with even a 4th suggested producer of the DAO.

cheers
Peter

[chen]

Eagle details.

cheers

Matt

Interesting photos, thanks for showing.

[Chris Obermeyer]

Gentlemen,

I would like to make one last comment on this topic if I may:

1-When someone mentions other manufacturers for the German Order is explicit that this rare Cross was designed with the intention to be awarded to many people. Anyone know that this could not be further from the truth. Having been drawn in 1941, introduced officially in February 11, 1942, was awarded for the first time on the same date to Reichsminister Dr. fritz Todt. Until 1945 only 11 were awarded. The Deutscher Orden never took any maufacturer`s mark because there was no need.Deuner was the only maker as I said long before.
Even stranger and by the fact that some believe that this Order could have been made by other manufacturers, these made of bronze have no marling as, in these cases is to be expected. Take KCs for example.
About an year and a half ago the auction house Hermann Historica sold a Knights Cross with Oak Leaves Swords and Diamonds that belonged to the LW-Oberst Werner Mölders by half a million Euros. The Cross was indisputably authentic, however it is estimated that about 50 were manufactured. If a cross like that can cost this much, a fortune, how can na original Deutscher Ordenser offered at auction for just Eur 35,000 and not having any bid and of course not sold. Considering that the Deutscher Orden is much more rare and its Political Merit value much higher, because it was the most important award of the III Reich be significantly cheaper? Is it me or something is seriously wrong.

2-What is reagarding to Eagle Orders, the 1937 models (first and second type) and the model of 1939, were exclusively manufactured by Godet (Textbook information). In 1943, the final model of the Order of the Eagle, there are rumors that other makers presented showed interested to aldo make Eagle Orders but as far as I know, no official document or even the book of Heinrich Dohle mentions this fact. The only Grosskreus that the whereabouts are known is that once belonged to Reichsaussenminister Joachin von Ribbentrop and the Order of the Eagle was owned by Mr.Bill Stump, I met personally. So the one NOT SOLD at Andreas Thies auction is a FAKE!

3- Finally, Mtthew, did you notice in the photos, posted by you, numbers 2, 3 and 4 at the top of most Eagles, a strange gray-green color? You know what that strongly suggests? A strong indication of an attempt to insert artificial patina, very popular with fakers of ancient Chinese vases in bronze or so I have seening more than once. Do you have any publication in the press of the time on the fire or the slighting of these decorations? In other words, any bulletproof evidence?

Thank you but now I am really out of this thread.
Cristian Obermeyer.

P.S I know about these pictures fot years, they belong to e-medals.

[Matthew]

The German Order is a much earlier invention- first period mentions of it come from year 1939 that I could find. I am surprised your extensive research does not show it.
As to why it sells for what it sells which is much less than say highest grade of Knights Cross: it is not something being as respected as the Knights Cross was and continued to be post war. Whether State or Political award and however you look at it, it was not something to be associated with when the guns fell silent in 1945. It was every bit a NAZI award but without the bravery, honor and respect attached to it. Not something that was won with blood for Fatherland in the heat of combat either.
The fact that Thies (whom I have no love for either- the man is a keyboard warrior with Napolean Complex) piece sold for peanuts means nothing either.
Some of my best pieces and the rarest I was only able to buy because for one reason or another everyone else passed on them. Doesn't mean they're not original.
Yes, the Chinese vases feature artificial patina on them. The other day I noticed similar patina on the pipes under the sink. Do you think my plumber felt the need to artificially patinate those old pipes too? I better have them checked in case they're fake..
Yes, the pictures I posted belong to emedals. Which is why I posted credit next to them.
I applaud your desire to disappear from this thread and as such feel free to treat my above questions as rhetorical ones- no need to answer.

cheers

Matt

[Chris Obermeyer]

The German Order is a much earlier invention- first period mentions of it come from year 1939 that I could find. I am surprised your extensive research does not show it.
As to why it sells for what it sells which is much less than say highest grade of Knights Cross: it is not something being as respected as the Knights Cross was and continued to be post war. Whether State or Political award and however you look at it, it was not something to be associated with when the guns fell silent in 1945. It was every bit a NAZI award but without the bravery, honor and respect attached to it. Not something that was won with blood for Fatherland in the heat of combat either.
The fact that Thies (whom I have no love for either- the man is a keyboard warrior with Napolean Complex) piece sold for peanuts means nothing either.
Some of my best pieces and the rarest I was only able to buy because for one reason or another everyone else passed on them. Doesn't mean they're not original.
Yes, the Chinese vases feature artificial patina on them. The other day I noticed similar patina on the pipes under the sink. Do you think my plumber felt the need to artificially patinate those old pipes too? I better have them checked in case they're fake..
Yes, the pictures I posted belong to emedals. Which is why I posted credit next to them.
I applaud your desire to disappear from this thread and as such feel free to treat my above questions as rhetorical ones- no need to answer.

cheers

Matt

Dear Sir,

I wasn't making references to prototypes of the German Order but referring to final model accepted and officially adopted by the State, of course, the version in silver gilt, made by Deumer.

Your comments always vague and misguided, don't make any logical sense or any benefit for the collector or scholar. Remember that the basis to stipulate values are not restricted to references between buyer power compared to the strength in sales.

Let's take a lesson from nature: Gold worth more than silver because there is in much smaller quantity, so the rarity is also an important factor to be considered. If this basic rule is violated is a sign that something strange is going on. How anout irresponsible speculation....

Yours absurd comments about the value of merit leads me to believe that a medical unit behind the enemy front line doesn't deserve any of the credit.
Civil and political organizations as well respond also by huge responsibilities and are by definition political soldiers running and fighting for his country. I would call it bravery too, no doubt. There is one State to be administered
I wasn't making references to your plumbing, as you very well know, but the criminal application of artificial patina obtained through mixing of very weak acids, with the goal of tricking the collector thing you seem to give due importance.

Christian Obermeyer.

[Matthew]

It's called demand.
The demand for political decorations when compared to combat decorations is very, very low.
The fact what you or me think about rear medical units vs. say, Panzer Crews does not change a thing in this equation.
Additionally, with the official decree of 1957, the veterans were permitted to wear their combat decorations as well. That tells me that someone else though that those were awards respected enough to be worn with pride even if won supporting the opposite side. By the same token, none of the Political awards were allowed. You can figure out why on your own, I am sure.
My comments are vague? What did you bring to the table in this discussion again? You called tombak crosses fake with no proof whatsoever. None. It's fake because Thies sold too many for your liking. And because your alter-ego- Alyston says so. Funny thing is you started to post after he got banned.
No, of course not. Two different people for sure...

Well, you'd think that the 'two skilled fakers from Hungary' who modeled their fakes after an original 'supplied by a German Dealer' would finally figure out that silver is where Chris Obermeyer/Alyston Doyle thinks they should be at and stamp few out in case you make a 180 from Napoleonic Awards or just to keep the most discerning customers satisfied.

They are fake because of patina? Once again- ground shattering fact. Here is a tip: sometimes things that are very, very old will develop the patina as well. Not because someone added it. No one thinks much about it when they see it on a party badge or old plumbing. But when seen on a GO- goodness gracious! FAKE!!

If I was on the market to buy one, I would be comparing die characteristics with known original, not base metals. That would be my start. If they matched, I would buy whatever became available. I would love to hear your explanation on how to achieve a matching cross from different die.
Looking forward to it.

cheers

Matt

[chen]

It's called demand.
The demand for political decorations when compared to combat decorations is very, very low.
The fact what you or me think about rear medical units vs. say, Panzer Crews does not change a thing in this equation.
Additionally, with the official decree of 1957, the veterans were permitted to wear their combat decorations as well. That tells me that someone else though that those were awards respected enough to be worn with pride even if won supporting the opposite side. By the same token, none of the Political awards were allowed. You can figure out why on your own, I am sure.
My comments are vague? What did you bring to the table in this discussion again? You called tombak crosses fake with no proof whatsoever. None. It's fake because Thies sold too many for your liking. And because your alter-ego- Alyston says so. Funny thing is you started to post after he got banned.
No, of course not. Two different people for sure...

Well, you'd think that the 'two skilled fakers from Hungary' who modeled their fakes after an original 'supplied by a German Dealer' would finally figure out that silver is where Chris Obermeyer/Alyston Doyle thinks they should be at and stamp few out in case you make a 180 from Napoleonic Awards or just to keep the most discerning customers satisfied.

They are fake because of patina? Once again- ground shattering fact. Here is a tip: sometimes things that are very, very old will develop the patina as well. Not because someone added it. No one thinks much about it when they see it on a party badge or old plumbing. But when seen on a GO- goodness gracious! FAKE!!

If I was on the market to buy one, I would be comparing die characteristics with known original, not base metals. That would be my start. If they matched, I would buy whatever became available. I would love to hear your explanation on how to achieve a matching cross from different die.
Looking forward to it.

cheers

Matt

[Chris Obermeyer]

No, the demand for military decorations is not greater than those made for Political or Civil organizations. Study the catalogues of Hermann Historica, for example and you will see the truth. Most decoration not sold at the auction are military although I know they have Them in grester number (military badges I mean). The 1957 version of military decorations of the Third Reich were modified, removed the swastika for purely political reasons.For the same political reasons, these decorations were extinguished which in any way detracts from the merits of those who received these awards, again, Political or Civil and I CALL IT meritocracy, and because the Political Organizations of the III Reich also were extinguished. Politics pure and simple.

What is my contribution to this topic? Is this a joke of bad taste? Read the whole thread again. But I promised you,the vital information you are desperate to know you will never hear from me. LOL

Me and Mr Doyle are not the same person although we share similar values and opinions. However I suggest to avoid his name because he's not here to defend himself. And his correct name is AYLSON DOYLE and not Alyson. He is a German/Irish descendeb. Believe me he is serious as a heart attack, more German than I am myself.

In regards to awards made or not with the same or different dies, it´s a very complex issue and took a long time to the correct study.
let's test your confidence and courage about your declaration that materials are not to be concearned to determine if a decoration is original or not under a hypotetical situation. If you identify an original KC, perfect in details, according to your personal knowledge, but this cross does not have the magnetic center. Would you buy that?
I agree the patina is not very important but a fake patina when fraud is discovered, Yes, it is important.

I do respect your opinion and courage but for obvious reasons I prefer to play on the safe side. So Eagle Orders made by other maker but Godet is a fake, same deal to Red Cross Orders or Social Welfares Order, Godet textbook only. German Orders were only made by Deumer in Silver Gilt, all the others are fakes, that´s my opinion and behaviour towards collecting.
Of course you may do whatever you want.

Christian Obermeyer.

P.S. Still reagarding to the pictures you posted, a German Order that was burned, how can a decoration burn and the fragile enamel remais almost intact....strange, do you have any explanation for this true miracle? LOL.