Urkunde - but what is the rank?

[JamesT]

Gentlemen

What is the rank on this Urkunde? Is it police?

Many thanks

James

[Simon O.]

Kriminal obersekretär, a gestapo rank, though not sure if it was used in other organisations like the kripo.

[kaiserwilhelm2]

It is a SiPo (Sicherheitspolizei) rank equal to Leutnant.

[Gerdan]

Still today a rank in the German "Kriminalpolizei":

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...=www.google.de

Gerdan

[JamesT]

thanks Gentlemen

From this document is it possible to say if the recipient is Sicherheitspolizei or Gestapo?

Assuming the document is real - is it?

Thanks

James

[crfraser]

Why would the Luftwaffe be bestoring an award on a SIPO officer? Seems too obvious an inconsistency for a forger to commit so I assume there is a valid reason?

Colin

[Simon O.]

I believe this award is connected to the battle of Berlin, the concentrated bombing campaign RAF bomber command conducted against the capital late 43 and early 44. As the luftwaffe were responsible for the defences it follows that awards connected to the defences came from them.

[max history]

It could be that the recipient was a member of the RSD (Reichssicherheitsdienst) attached to the protection unit for Göring at Carinhall, where an anti-flak section was based. The rank is a Kripo rank, common in the RSD. A nice piece.
Only a suggestion.
Max.

[JamesT]

RSD - now that is interesting. I wonder if from the name it is possible to find out more. Do records for the RSD exist? So could be RSD, Sicherheitspolizei or Gestapo

Many thanks

James

[SiPo]

From this document is it possible to say if the recipient is Sicherheitspolizei or Gestapo?

James, there appears to be a slight confusion regarding the Gestapo/SiPo. They are in fact one in the same as the Geheime Staatspolizei and the Kriminalpolizei merged (in title only) to form the Sicherheitspolizei, in 1936.

The prefix "Kriminal" could apply to ranks in both the Gestapo and the Kripo and the only way to check which organization he belonged to is to trace his career history. This could prove difficult and costly in terms of archival research.

Also bear in mind, there were crossovers between departments and you sometimes find that a Kripo Detective worked at some point in the Gestapo and vice versa.

I have several of these KvK2 docs to members of the SiPo and I agree with Simon in that this one is more than likely for service during air raids, although Max does offer an interesting suggestion.

Please PM me for possible info on Lietze.

[Gerd W.]

Still today a rank in the German "Kriminalpolizei":

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...=www.google.de

Gerdan

Sorry, that´s not correct!

Sekretär is a rank only used by administration officers (Polizeiverwaltung), not by Kriminalpolizei or Schutzpolizei officers. Only in some federal departments Police administration officers use Polizei- in front (Polizeisekretär/ Polizeiober-, Polizeihaupt-, Polizeiinspektor and so on).

[SiPo]

Here is one from my collection which is also from Berlin.