Enemy dead in German photographs

[Frieden]

Dear forum members:

I am new to this forum, but have visited it every day for at least a year to share in the wonderful photographs that are collected by so many of you.

I do have a question for you veteran collectors of photographs taken by German soldiers. Several years ago I attended a history conference at which an eminent historian of the Second World War was a presenter. He made some remarks that were unchallenged by members of the audience (most of them professional historians) and which have troubled me a great deal since. The eminent historian claimed to have reviewed many photographs taken by German troops in the field and sent home by post to family, friends, etc. He asserted that invariably, these photographs included depictions of enemy dead, and that these images were so contrived as to hold the photographer and his comrades out as gloating conquerers. He then spoke of his brother, who was in the US army and visited Hiroshima and/or Nagasaki after the A-bombings, and who took no such photographs. The historian then openly asserted that this comparison showed that only German soldiers took photographs of enemy dead or dead people in general, and that ergo they (the German soldiers) were barbarians.

Considering that it is estimated that some 30-40 BILLION pieces of mail were sent by German soldiers to the homeland during WWII, I wonder whether the eminent historian's sampling of pictures could by any stretch of the imagination be considered statistically representative, even if his assertion about having seen such photographs be accepted as true. I have my doubts.

So, I put it to you: in your experience of collecting photographs taken by German troops in the field during World War II, do those photographs invariably contain depictions of enemy dead in such a way to glorify the German conqueror?

By the way, I personally have seen pictures taken by GIs showing enemy dead, as I'm sure you have as well. By this historian's logic, should those GIs be regarded as barbarians as well?

I hope that you will pardon this long-winded post, but I would really appreciate the opinion of people who know about the subject rather than the opinion of someone who probably doesn't.

Thank you.

Tom

[Johnnie]

Evidently this "eminent" historian couldn't find his ass with a search warrant. The photographing of enemy dead is a common practice among ALL soldiers who have access to cameras. My father was a Marine in the Pacific, and brought back pictures of dead Japanese. I served in Vietnam, and although I didn't usually carry the extra weight of a camera along with all the ammo I humped, many of my friends did, and gleefully photographed our "body count"
I suspect that German soldiers probably had more cameras than their Russian or French counterparts.
I have also seen a lot of pictures of German dead taken by Brit. 8th Army vets in North Africa.
So if you ever see this "historian" again, tell him to get a life and do some historical research before he shoots his mouth off. You will have every right.
Best regards,
Johnnie

Dear forum members:

I am new to this forum, but have visited it every day for at least a year to share in the wonderful photographs that are collected by so many of you.

I do have a question for you veteran collectors of photographs taken by German soldiers. Several years ago I attended a history conference at which an eminent historian of the Second World War was a presenter. He made some remarks that were unchallenged by members of the audience (most of them professional historians) and which have troubled me a great deal since. The eminent historian claimed to have reviewed many photographs taken by German troops in the field and sent home by post to family, friends, etc. He asserted that invariably, these photographs included depictions of enemy dead, and that these images were so contrived as to hold the photographer and his comrades out as gloating conquerers. He then spoke of his brother, who was in the US army and visited Hiroshima and/or Nagasaki after the A-bombings, and who took no such photographs. The historian then openly asserted that this comparison showed that only German soldiers took photographs of enemy dead or dead people in general, and that ergo they (the German soldiers) were barbarians.

Considering that it is estimated that some 30-40 BILLION pieces of mail were sent by German soldiers to the homeland during WWII, I wonder whether the eminent historian's sampling of pictures could by any stretch of the imagination be considered statistically representative, even if his assertion about having seen such photographs be accepted as true. I have my doubts.

So, I put it to you: in your experience of collecting photographs taken by German troops in the field during World War II, do those photographs invariably contain depictions of enemy dead in such a way to glorify the German conqueror?

By the way, I personally have seen pictures taken by GIs showing enemy dead, as I'm sure you have as well. By this historian's logic, should those GIs be regarded as barbarians as well?

I hope that you will pardon this long-winded post, but I would really appreciate the opinion of people who know about the subject rather than the opinion of someone who probably doesn't.

Thank you.

Tom

[Simon O.]

Wonder what this 'historian' would think of all the photos i've seen taken during the Gulf war.


I'd love to know who this 'historian' is.

[Frieden]

The historian was Gerhard Weinberg, author of, among other things, "A World At War", which was, I think, a very "hot seller" a few years ago (as historical tomes go). Johnnie is right--I thought of Weinberg's criticism every time I saw a picture of a dead German with an Allied soldier standing next to the corpse. There is also a website that concerns the Allied bombing of the Ruhr; on that website, you will see a photo of a bomb shelter after an Allied bombing. The shelter, of course, is filled with corpses, one of whom was a "golden pheasant" in full dress party uniform. The picture was obviously taken immediately after the bombing. Apart from the fact that the photographer probably would have been shot if discovered by the then German authorities, that photo raised questions in my mind about Weinberg's statement; the picture was obviously taken by a German---was this German "OK" because, even though he was photographing corpses, the corpses were German?

[Frieden]

There is another thing apropos of Johnnie's comment that I failed to mention. The conference was sponsored by the Society for Military History, an organization that includes, and is indeed dominated by, active duty and retired military, most of whom have doctorates in military history and many, if not most, of whom also are combat veterans--Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, you name it. None of these folks challenged Weinberg's statements.

[Akira Takiguchi]

So, I put it to you: in your experience of collecting photographs taken by German troops in the field during World War II, do those photographs invariably contain depictions of enemy dead in such a way to glorify the German conqueror?

Today many of us would say the answer is NO, but how the people back then felt is another story --- I do not see intentional glorification on dead bodies but I do see it when I see destroyed statues of Stalin and Lenin. Whether someone from the time felt Glory of Great Germany on dead bodies of the enemy, I have to say I don't know.

None of these folks challenged Weinberg's statements.

Most probably because it is not worth any challenge. Do you waste your breath on these opinion? I won't.

Tom, I do not see any problem with your opinion but as a moderator I have to say that this forum is not for political discussion. If you would like to continue, please choose elsewhere, thank you.

[Chris Boonzaier]

I dont know if anyone else noticed the same, but I almost always seem to find at least one obligatory photo of dead African troops in albums about the campaign in France.

[Ypenburg]

I dont know if anyone else noticed the same, but I almost always seem to find at least one obligatory photo of dead African troops in albums about the campaign in France.

And the point you're making is.......?

[VonLuck]

Precisely, the pictures we've all seen out of Abu Ghirab aren't exactly flattering to the dead. I've yet to see things like those on any WWII pictures, so that historian probably got his degree from a Cracker-Jack box.

Wonder what this 'historian' would think of all the photos i've seen taken during the Gulf war.


I'd love to know who this 'historian' is.

[PaulR]

My mother recently threw out albums of photos my father took in Vietnam. He had hunderds of such photos he took while over there.

[milcollector]

cant say I have ever seen german snapshots of enemy dead that were glorifying the conquerors. They are generally always just pics of bodies in fields, on roadsides etc. Very "matter of fact" scenes without glorification.

I think the Americans were more guilty of glorifying enemy dead photos than the Germans. Doesnt bother me either way anyway. In war it is either you or the other guy. Politically correctness was not an issue in those times. Fair enough to get a snapshot with the enemy you just killed. After all, he would have happily put a bullet into your head, if given half the chance.

[R MICHAEL]

I tend to agree with the concensus. I haven't seen, yet, any type of depictions in my German photos like some from my Grandfather and his brothers albums from the Pacific. I have a photo which I believe to be a "canteen" photo showing a native in US blouse holding a severed Japanese head. all the while displaying a big grin.

[Homer Hodge]

Gerhard Weinberg, now 78, is generally recognized by historians as one of the foremost experts on World War II and especially Germany during the Third Reich period and has written a great deal on those subjects. He was born in Germany of Jewish parents and his family fled Germany in the late 1930s. Obviously, his credentials, as impressive as they are, do not necessarily make him an expert on German soldiers' personal photos. That said, he is not exactly the dumb sh*t some here may think he is.
Over the last several decades, I've certainly seen a lot of photos of dead Russian soldiers taken by Germans and some of them were rather grisly. I don't know how many of those were taken by individual soldiers or Propaganda officers.
I tend to think soldiers taking photos of dead enemy may be a cultural thing; Westerners tend to do it, Asians do not. When I was in Vietnam, I spent time in the field with both American soldiers and South Vietnamese soldiers. If they had a camera, Americans would take pictures of dead enemy. South Vietnamese soldiers with cameras only took photos of each other. I don't know whether it was due to superstition or reverence for the dead....
I might add that I don't remember ever seeing any US soldiers taking photos of dead US soldiers....