First, I would like to thank Andrew for his mature and reasonable position on this discussion. All too often, if a question is raised over authenticity of a document, the owner becomes belligerent and defensive. This is understandable in many cases because the money involved can be quite substantial, but it not only prevents reasonable discussion and can also inhibit opinions being aired. So thank you Andrew for allowing us the possibility of adult debate.
My thoughts on these signatures have already been aired above and I am sorry to say that my opinion has not been altered by the excellent close-up scans provided by Andrew. Suffice to say that they have reaffirmed my initial assessment. However, some points have been raised upon which I can make comment.
Andrew is quite right in saying that he has the benefit of actually holding these items and his gut feeling is that they are right. Gut feeling plays an important role in determination of authenticity and should not be underestimated.
Mark mentions the extent of possible research carried out for these pieces. In my experience of 40 years of collecting and researching autographs, the majority of which have been specialised in the Third Reich and SS field, I have never ceased to be amazed at the lengths some people go to in order to recreate a close resemblance of an authentic item. Some forgers are excellent at their trade, but in 99% of good forgeries there is always a fault, no matter how small. I have seen numerous methods employed in an effort to dupe a buyer into believing he/she has the genuine article.
For example, in Andrew’s Vorschlag document, it is quite possible that a forger could lay hands on a Xerox copy of the original document (or even the original itself) and then type the details onto a blank authentic Vorschlag document. Examples of blank authentic documents have been readily available over the years. Stamps are easily obtained also.
Andrew has intimated that his documents were not cheap and therefore it is worth a prospective forger going to these lengths in order to make a hefty profit. In saying this, documents sometimes change hands any number of times and there is no suggestion that Andrew’s source has knowingly sold a fake item. Mark also states that these docs are very desirable and any prospective forger will know that.
I know of at least one forger working in Germany over recent years whose work is often found in respectable auction houses and militaria dealerships worldwide, often innocently offered with so-called certificates of authenticity. His/her work has its own trademark to the experienced eye.
Andrew has stated that he has shown his documents to two dealers who appeared “happy” with them. Were they autograph specialists or militaria dealers?
Yellowing of the various pages is quite common in blank documents as well as completed documents and does not need to be faked (although there are modern methods to do so.) It all depends on how and where the paper has been stored over the years.
Now look closely at Andrew’s Lammerding signature and note the lack of flow to it. There are also marked differences to genuine examples of his autograph, such as breaks in the handwriting, small gaps between characters, the unsteadiness in some upward and downward strokes, the formation of certain characters, etc. I could go on, but a comparison with genuine examples illustrates my points conclusively. Some might offer an explanation that Lammerding wasn’t feeling well when he signed this piece, or even the surface upon which he was resting was unsteady, but I’m afraid that is grabbing at straws.
Finally, I showed some of Andrew’s scans to another Third Reich autograph expert, a collector and dealer for more years than I can remember. He does not wish to become involved, but he agreed to give his private opinion on Andrew’s Vorschlag document. Suffice to say that his opinion was not at variance with mine.
In conclusion, my observations and opinions are just that…..opinions. I am sure that there are others out there who might disagree. As I have always stated, the only true method of authentication is by physical examination by an expert. If Andrew is happy with his documents, then that is all that matters.
Regards,
Max.
My thoughts on these signatures have already been aired above and I am sorry to say that my opinion has not been altered by the excellent close-up scans provided by Andrew. Suffice to say that they have reaffirmed my initial assessment. However, some points have been raised upon which I can make comment.
Andrew is quite right in saying that he has the benefit of actually holding these items and his gut feeling is that they are right. Gut feeling plays an important role in determination of authenticity and should not be underestimated.
Mark mentions the extent of possible research carried out for these pieces. In my experience of 40 years of collecting and researching autographs, the majority of which have been specialised in the Third Reich and SS field, I have never ceased to be amazed at the lengths some people go to in order to recreate a close resemblance of an authentic item. Some forgers are excellent at their trade, but in 99% of good forgeries there is always a fault, no matter how small. I have seen numerous methods employed in an effort to dupe a buyer into believing he/she has the genuine article.
For example, in Andrew’s Vorschlag document, it is quite possible that a forger could lay hands on a Xerox copy of the original document (or even the original itself) and then type the details onto a blank authentic Vorschlag document. Examples of blank authentic documents have been readily available over the years. Stamps are easily obtained also.
Andrew has intimated that his documents were not cheap and therefore it is worth a prospective forger going to these lengths in order to make a hefty profit. In saying this, documents sometimes change hands any number of times and there is no suggestion that Andrew’s source has knowingly sold a fake item. Mark also states that these docs are very desirable and any prospective forger will know that.
I know of at least one forger working in Germany over recent years whose work is often found in respectable auction houses and militaria dealerships worldwide, often innocently offered with so-called certificates of authenticity. His/her work has its own trademark to the experienced eye.
Andrew has stated that he has shown his documents to two dealers who appeared “happy” with them. Were they autograph specialists or militaria dealers?
Yellowing of the various pages is quite common in blank documents as well as completed documents and does not need to be faked (although there are modern methods to do so.) It all depends on how and where the paper has been stored over the years.
Now look closely at Andrew’s Lammerding signature and note the lack of flow to it. There are also marked differences to genuine examples of his autograph, such as breaks in the handwriting, small gaps between characters, the unsteadiness in some upward and downward strokes, the formation of certain characters, etc. I could go on, but a comparison with genuine examples illustrates my points conclusively. Some might offer an explanation that Lammerding wasn’t feeling well when he signed this piece, or even the surface upon which he was resting was unsteady, but I’m afraid that is grabbing at straws.
Finally, I showed some of Andrew’s scans to another Third Reich autograph expert, a collector and dealer for more years than I can remember. He does not wish to become involved, but he agreed to give his private opinion on Andrew’s Vorschlag document. Suffice to say that his opinion was not at variance with mine.
In conclusion, my observations and opinions are just that…..opinions. I am sure that there are others out there who might disagree. As I have always stated, the only true method of authentication is by physical examination by an expert. If Andrew is happy with his documents, then that is all that matters.
Regards,
Max.
. Similar to forging your dad's signature at school. You'd think they would practice to get a flow/consistent rhythm. As a signwriter with some skill at penmanship - this thread was very interesting. Glad you got your money back and all's well. Happy Christmas one and all 
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