SS-EK1 document

[Panzer Rob]

I can`t just believe,that these documents are one ****.Well,this is found out now.These documents do not apply anything.

So what are your plans? What will you do with these fakes... will you destroy them?


Rob

[Frontalschaden]

Sorry, but this is not correct. Lammerding is listed in the 9 Nov 1944 SS-DAL as SS-Brigadeführer und Generalmajor der Waffen-SS.

Hello

Yes, that`s right.
My mistake.
Lammerding became the rank of a SS Gruppenführer in Januar 1945.

I think, I need glasses when I read something...

Best regards, Fronti

[robertoroni]

I will sell the whole set of these medals and documents give the customer.

[andrewb]

Andrew,
How sure are you that your example is genuine? Without the benefit of seeing your entire document, both the Lammerding and Hausser signatures appear very unstable to me. They both look as if they have been nervously written by unsteady hand(s). Maybe a sight of the document in its entirety will dispel my doubts?
Regards,
Max.

Hi Max,
Here is a link to the docs in full. According to D.N. these documents (and others) were "obtained" from the Berlin archives by an employee who would then sell them. He eventually was caught and went to prison.
Best I end the story there.


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=enseling


Regards,
AB.

[max history]

Andrew,
Thanks for the link to the full document.
Unfortunately, it is my opinion that your signatures and consequently the Vorschlag are almost certainly fake. There are a number of reasons why I have come to this conclusion, but the main reason is the three signatures. All of them appear to have been written by an unsteady hand and none of them have the continuous flow or flourish of a genuine signature. It is almost impossible to have an authentic document bearing three independent signatures which all appear to have been written slowly, as if being copied or by an unsure nervous hand. I would wish to examine the signatures under magnification, but initially I would also consider that they were all written by the same hand.
The most obvious forgery, in my opinion, is the Lammerding, closely followed by the Ostendorff. The Lammerding signature appears to contain pauses in its execution, something not present in authentic autographs and nearly always a clear indication of forgery. Magnification would show these pauses more clearly.
The typeface of the typewriter used also needs close examination.
As for the source of the document, it is highly unlikely that this document was held by the BDC originally as SSO and RuSHA files did not usually include award documents, only notification to the SS-Personalhauptamt by the recipient of an award being bestowed.
Of course, this is just my opinion, but I am reasonably confident (without the benefit of physical examination) that your signatures are not right.
Sorry,
Max.

[andrewb]

Max,
Both documents are very fragile and need extra care when viewing them. When I showed Detlev these docs back in Oct. 08 he as aware of them and where they came from. Berlin Archives is what I thought he said. The case of these stolen docs was advertised and German dealers were notified (at least he was). Because of this its impossible to sell them in Germany. Many of them made their way to the US and thats where these 2 docs came from.

However, I hear what you say and I appreciate you opinion.

Regards,
AB.

[Simon O.]

The BDC thefts have been brought up here a few times when items turn up. A bit of a moral question mark really, the thefts were a crime thus the documents remain stolen property but from what i understand the relevant authorities don't have the will or resources to do anything about it.

[max history]

Simon,
The former BDC thefts are well known and well documented as you say. My point is, this document is not the type of document held by the former BDC in the SSO and RuSHA files from where the thefts ocurred. At first sight of Andrew's Vorschlag document, alarm bells started to ring loudly.
I'd also point out to Andrew that Detlev Niemann is a militaria dealer, not a Third Reich autograph expert.
Regards,
Max.

[andrewb]

If anyone has a Lammerding signature could they please post it here. It would be greatly appreciated. I cannot find one in this forum other than those in this thread.

Also, I will start a new thread in the next few days regarding my documents with close-ups of the typing, stamps and signatures for discussion.

Regards,
AB.

[Panzer Rob]

If anyone has a Lammerding signature could they please post it here. It would be greatly appreciated. I cannot find one in this forum other than those in this thread.

Here's an original that appears on one of the SS-VT Truppenausweis in my collection. Notice that it dates from 1938 which is roughly 6 years earlier from when the sig in question would have been done. Sorry the quality is so poor, but it's all I have with me at the moment.

Having been sitting in the background watching this discussion, I do have to say that the Lammerding signature in question does look very "start-stop" and thought out... it stuck out the instant I saw it. I haven't quite made up my mind on it yet, but my initial reaction was not favorable. Considering the other documents and signatures, it could be OK... Tough call without actually having this doc in hand. I find myself agreeing with Max on pretty much all of the following:

Andrew,
Unfortunately, it is my opinion that your signatures and consequently the Vorschlag are almost certainly fake. There are a number of reasons why I have come to this conclusion, but the main reason is the three signatures. All of them appear to have been written by an unsteady hand and none of them have the continuous flow or flourish of a genuine signature. It is almost impossible to have an authentic document bearing three independent signatures which all appear to have been written slowly, as if being copied or by an unsure nervous hand. I would wish to examine the signatures under magnification, but initially I would also consider that they were all written by the same hand.

The most obvious forgery, in my opinion, is the Lammerding, closely followed by the Ostendorff. The Lammerding signature appears to contain pauses in its execution, something not present in authentic autographs and nearly always a clear indication of forgery. Magnification would show these pauses more clearly. The typeface of the typewriter used also needs close examination. As for the source of the document, it is highly unlikely that this document was held by the BDC originally as SSO and RuSHA files did not usually include award documents, only notification to the SS-Personalhauptamt by the recipient of an award being bestowed. Of course, this is just my opinion, but I am reasonably confident (without the benefit of physical examination) that your signatures are not right.
Sorry,
Max.

Here's the scan of my Lammerding signature.....
Thanks,
Rob

[max history]

Rob,
Thanks for your comments and for your scan which illustrates the natural "flourish" of Lammerding's autograph. There is a marked difference between Rob's and Andrew's examples which is clear to the eye.
At present, I am unable to scan and post examples of Lammerding's signature, but I can direct readers to the study of Otto Weidinger by Mark Yerger. In it are several examples and they clearly show the natural flow of his signature which is not present in Andrew's document.
Regards,
Max.

[robertoroni]

I found one picture with his signature.Maybe is this signature authentic?
The image is from the Internet.

[robertoroni]

If the picture is disputed may be removed.

[andrewb]

Seeing the momentum has started here I've decided to continue it by posting my close-ups here which I will do today.

I would interested to know what we all think of the Lammerding signature in the opening post of this thread??

Regards,
AB.

[Justin P]

Seeing the momentum has started here I've decided to continue it by posting my close-ups here which I will do today.

I would interested to know what we all think of the Lammerding signature in the opening post of this thread??

Regards,
AB.

Hi AB

Do you mean from post#11

robertoroni has informed us that he is still selling this Group etc. He has in the past used previous discussion Topics in his new sale thread. Think a New thread would help you better, Hope it turns out ok for you. But Max sounds Confident.