To Sudek13

[Maisalto]

Karl B

"I said it before in this thread I believe he and others had artificially raised the prices"

I understand your point, mas I can´t agree that him (Sudek) and others have artificially raised the prices.
I still remember when I used to buy a pretty good pic of a KV-1 early model for between 7 and 9 euros...those were the days! I confess, I´ve been selling those same pics for five, six times the price paid. The only difference is that now there are more people bidding and with more money. Prices are not artificially raised, but the market has changed.

"The question I ask myself is are they really worth as much as people are now prepared to pay"

There are a lot of reasons why people pay such amounts of money. I´ve seen death notice cards selling at almost obscene prices, only because someone wanted those pieces of paper very much. Beats me why...

I agree sometimes it is difficult to understand why some items get so priced. But I find even more difficult to understand why some people are willing to sell photos that belonged or represent relatives, grandfathers and so on...and this takes me to another issue: who is selling family albums, documents and family photos? Would you sell a photo of your deceased grandfather killed in action during WW II? It seems more and more people are doing so...

[Maisalto]

Sorry, double post...

[Karl B]

Maisalto

True the market (this name is also significant as it is a market now rather than a hobby) has changed and part of the change as been driven by insane prices being paid and thus a roll on effect is a perceived raise in the value of photos in general.

As for selling part of the family history. One factor is of course you and me.

Cheers

Karl

[Stefan De Meyer]

To Mr Jan Van Den Heuvel and anybody interested....

Hello gentlemen,

Please forgive me that I did not see your question sooner.

Allow me to write a reply to Jan first :

First of all David's team consists of several sub-groups each with their own passions, dreams, ambitions, plans, 'strategies' etc...
Personally I 'only' take care of the ground warfare, exclusive coastal defence.
In other words mainly AFV's, artillery, soft-skinned vehicles.. and a few other 'random' subjects.
If you have any questions, suggestions, complaints etc... regarding navy, aircraft, social aspects of WW II then I am afraid that I am not the right person to answer those questions.
In other words I do not interfer with what my colleagues do. I have my dish of tanks and try to stick to that.

If you say that the primary source for photos is ebay then I think that you are wrong to a certain degree. Of all the photos we bought only 10 to 15% were won at ebay. This to say that 80% of the fish swimming around swim in other ponds than ebay.

As for publications and publishers I don't think that we (sudek13) have prevented anybody from publishing a book. At the contrary. Though more about that further down this reply.
Please read my lips and remember the words for all time : NOT ONE PHOTO ONLY EXISTS IN ONE COPY!
All the photos you see at ebay exist in several examples. And to this can be added that 95% of the technique photos which are offered for sale also exist in high resolution scans which circulate among collectors or which are being sold for hard cash to a number of collectors/publishers who use these to publish their books or articles.
So don't think that if we win a photo (even for a high price) we are the only owners of that image.

Why do we buy these photos? I suppose you want a fair answer :
1. Because David as well as his team members have a passion for these photos just like you do. In my very personal case this passion started in 1979 at the age of 19 and still continues.
2. Because thorugh David we have the possibility to realize our dreams for some part. BTW I wonder if you or any of you over here would have run away and declined the offer to help build an archive if you'd be given the chance to create something exceptional and this with means most can only dream of?
3. To preserve some part of our military heritage.
4. To make it available to people who have the desire and the perseverance to create books that make a difference.
If you doubt about this I invite you to contact Neil Stokes. English from birth, spent his childhood in Australia and now lives in New York. He's preparing a book on the Russian KV's and the two colour slides we won today at ebay and which we paid rather dearly because also another buff wanted them for his publications will be forwarded to Neil FOR FREE to use in his book. Just like the other 300+ photos of KV's we shared with him to help illustrate what should be the best book written so far on the subject.
5. To try to build that little army of collaborators and kindred spirits we have been dreaming of right from the start. And this to make of our archive the best of its kind.
6. To see that collection end-up one day in the hands of someone else than David or any of his team members. The reason why we collect should not be searched for in the near future, but in the far away future. And neither David nor anybody of his team will take a single photo with him in his coffin.
You will understand that I am not allowed to give certain details and you must understand that sudek13 prefers to keep a low profile, but any of you with some imagination and desire to learn a little about who David is and what he and his father did and does will easily discover that the reason for his collecting is rather different from the reasons some dealers or collectors (even among those over here) collect.

As for us wanting to stop the release of new books or research? At the contrary, we are happy to see how many new titles appear every year. Never in the history of our hobby were there so many books published. For sure not in the sixties, seventies or eighties. Times when all those photos were still in the hands of the veterans, the Kameradschaften or archives. But I also remember how much photos were neglected at that time. I started my hunt for Ardennes wrecks in the seventies and eighties and you would be surprised how few photos could be found in the Belgian archives at that time. Less than 50. And this while their staffs were paid for preserving military heritage. But instead of making appeals to anybody owning photos they did a lot of things except taking care of the preservation of our history.
Oh I still recall how disappointed and desperate I felt when I learned that at the Bundesarchiv in Freiburg were hundreds of private albums from German officiers who either gave their albums to the archive or their widows donated them. And do you think that it was possible to obtain a copy of any photo in those albums? It was already a miracle if you could move an employee to take you with him to this room where racks were full of albums. Those were the good old days! And please DO NOT forget that those people were paid by the government with the money from the tax payers.
This to tell you that I don't think that we (the five team members should be blamed because we don't manage to give a free copy of every photo we bought so far to every person who asks us for one.
If you think this would be realistic I would like to invite you to show me how you do it. Screen ebay, travel in search for collections or albums, make thousands of digits, record every photo (where you got it from, for what price, from whom, what's on it... and add to that every move each photo makes. Is it in Toronto, London, Marseille, Berlin, norther England, my place...?
I'm afraid that you don't have the slightest view on the full picture.
But rest assured, progress is being made every day and the first photos have found their way into publications (books and magazines). If you are a real buff who keeps an eye on what's being published and who checks the photo credits and forewords in the books then you will agree with me that our photos are everything but kept away from researchers and the hobby community in general.
BTW I swear you that right here among us I had more difficulties in the past to obtain one or two scans of some wrecks of my favourite subject and for PERSONAL use than the community is having difficulties to discover photos from us in actual publications. Not longer ago than last week did an article appear in Batailles et Blindés N°7 on the Flammpanzer B2 and in Trucks and Tracks magazine of March/April 2008 where a nice photo of a VK 16.01 is published and which we won at ebay for as little money as 500 euro or more. And do you think that we asked for any money in return for the use of the photos...?
Also in some issues of Track Story are a number of photos from our collection.
If you find many collectors who'd give you HR scans of the best possible quality to use them in your book or article please let me know. I mean photos which were hard fought for at ebay and not photos which cost 5 or 10 euro.
Please remember that very often in life the reality and the truth is very different from what people who have not the slightest knowledge or insight in certain matters say or pretend to know. And don't forget that it are often those who shout the loudest who are the furthest away from the truth and who often are less generous than they pretend to be or than the ones they criticize.
If I would have time I would post a few thousand thumbs of nice photos. But what are you with a thumb? These can be found by the thousand at ebay every day. As well as on the many forums and in the thousands of publications.
And if you really like the hunt for fresh and unseen material why not spend a few holidays in archives like the NARA, Patton Museum, Bundesarchiv, IWM archive, Bovington Tank Museum, ECPA in Paris or any other military archive on earth. Even press and photo agencies own often good material. And after all a copy there does not cost more than the price of an aircraft ticket, a few nights in an hotel, a fee to consult the collection and a fee for the reproduction you order. If you desire to use the photo in your book all you need to do is to add a few more dozen Euro or Dollar for the copy-right.
Funny but I don't hear anybody complain about the fact that official services with staff paid by the citizens ask100 Euro or more for a repros. NARA being among the exceptions as regrads copy-rights. Though I must say that the quality of their repros is not that good and the price not exactly democratic.
So if you'd ask me there's little merrit to post or to 'share' anything which is even less in quality than the stamp size photos we often see in low budget publications which are only created to make quick money.

Now as to your possibilities to pay a visit to the archive I don't think that this would be too much a problem for you. Flanders is not that far away from The Netherlands. 1 hour by car. And indeed Neil made the jump from New York to my place and as far as I know he did not regret. Just like a number of other researchers didn't.
But a kind of filter is necessary as explained before. Unless I would like to find myself spending days working for anybody requesting this or that. And at the same time the most urgent and important work that needs to be done would come to a halt. After all this whole adventure is paid for by one person and it is rather normal that the time we spend is time we spend on the collection and not chatting all days long.
A solution would be to hire an extra person to take care of visitors and to pay that person's salary through the fees asked to any visitor. But in that case we can also hire a third person, an accountant, to keep record of the revenues and expenses and for the paperwork as the taxes will of course claim some part of the money too.
I know I am exagerating a little, but I tell you this in order to make you understand that things are often less simple than you'd think at first. The fact alone that the services and the people are spread all over the world makes the tax aspect of our entreprise a nightmare and a very complicated matter.

To end with I don't think that we (sudek13) are blocking anything.
1. More than enough fish in the ponds.
2. Do you want a list of collectors who own several thousand if not tens of thousands of photos and from whom you will NOT get a single scan or photo for free?
3. Have you seen how many collectors are fishing at ebay? Several thousand. While there are some who for sure keep a Voodoo puppet with our name on their chimney with needles pinned in it because we sometimes (or often) run away with a candy they wanted too, there are hundreds of collectors who are not obstructed in their activities by sudek13 and who rule in their field of interest in an even harder way than we do. Though our aim is NOT to rule, but to build something unseen so far.

And for those who doubt : coalitions do not last. I have experienced this myself. In the end it are the same who will screen ebay every day and who will do the job of paying, mailing, forwarding, scanning etc... And the one will make a good scan and the other (either on purpose or not, pretending that his scanner is not good enough or that he does not understand photo shop well enough) will give you rubbish. And some will pay a lot for what remains after all a digit while one will own the original. And before you know the coalition is disbanded. In the best of case without arguments. But sometimes also in a state of war.

Pfff... very late by now and no desire nor time to re-read my posting. Please forgive me any typing errors. I will come back by occasion, but I must admit that my program is often so well filled that I barely have time to visit any forums.
And as for a personal letter from David I think that these days he really has very little time for himself and his family. Suffice to check what's going on on the market. Not only in Canada or the States, but world-wide. A 50,000 people business is not the same as an 8 to 5 job. With which I don't say that an 8 to 5 job fatiguing.

Cheers,

Stefan

[milcollector]

Please read my lips and remember the words for all time : NOT ONE PHOTO ONLY EXISTS IN ONE COPY!
All the photos you see at ebay exist in several examples.

sorry, but I do not accept this broad statement.
Certainly, I would admit that the majority of images exist in multiple prints, however to claim that ALL photos on Ebay exist in multiples is an extreme generalization.

[Stefan De Meyer]

It is indeed a little exagerated, but don't forget that the way prints were hand made in that era means that a decent photographer made at least one or two test prints before printing the definitive good one for the customer. Those test prints were not thrown away. At least not in the majority of cases.
Also did soldiers often order several duplicates for their friends.
Believe me if I say that 90% of the photos exist in more than one copy. And those which don't and which show technique (either derelict or operational) exist in very similar views.
The thing is that if you only rely on ebay to have a view on what exists you only see 10% of what is circulating.
If we would have a view on all the photos which are in collections or in private albums you would be less desperate about our activities than you are now.
Imagine all the photo collectors of this board only to post a scan of every military photo they own, both originals and digits, and I bet you would be surprised. After all as it was said already in one of the postings the sellers, dealers, collectors make HR scans of what they sell and before the original leaves their hands.
KR
S

[patrick h]

It is indeed a little exagerated, but don't forget that the way prints were hand made in that era means that a decent photographer made at least one or two test prints before printing the definitive good one for the customer. Those test prints were not thrown away. At least not in the majority of cases.
Also did soldiers often order several duplicates for their friends.
Believe me if I say that 90% of the photos exist in more than one copy.
S

Never heard that,is that really true?

greetings Patrick

[Stefan De Meyer]

It is Patrick.
It was the time of hand made with grade paper. Not the multigrade paper as we have now.
Warm regards,
Stefan

[milcollector]

The thing is that if you only rely on ebay to have a view on what exists you only see 10% of what is circulating.
S

so, just out of interest, if Ebay only represents 10%, then where are the second and third biggest sources of photos to be found ? (assuming Ebay is the biggest).

Yes it is without doubt that multiple prints were made during the war of most if not all photos, HOWEVER, only a minority of those duplicate prints made during the war can still be said to exist today - after 65 years. Especially given the fact that a huge amount of naz-era related items in Germany have been purposefully discarded and destroyed due to political correctness etc.
Therefore, your figure of 90% of photos having duplicates is no doubt correct, BUT ONLY for the war years when those pictures were initially developed. With each passing year that percentage lessens.
I would be willing to estimate that the amount of photos appearing on Ebay with original duplicates STILL in existence today is most definitely under 50%.

[Stefan De Meyer]

I would not dare to say that only a minority of the prints survive.
You forget one important aspect :
Who during the war had a camera and was interested and prepared to create a photographic overview of his time in the army?
In most cases the best shots and coverage were done by officers. After them came the NCO's and in the end the enlisted men.
We can go even further : The men of the Luftwaffe made most photos, followed by the Heer and then the Kriegsmarine to end with the para military orgaizations.
We go further :
In the Luftwaffe it were most of all the flying personnel (pilots, navigators, gunners etc...) who took photos, followed by people of the administration, the mechanics and the random services.
Why? Because it were most of all people coming from the 'upper class' families who cared about the history of their family. This 'upper class' went for either a professional career in the Wehrmacht or at least paid importance to its historical and family heritage.
That's why you find more cameras with pilots than with the 'ordinary' Landser. The first had the means to pay for cameras and film (sometimes even colour slides or movie film), and they paid more importance to souvenirs in the form of photos.
These families DID NOT and DO NOT throw away the family albums, but either pass them to archives, museum or sell them to dealers.
The lower in rank you go the 'less' interesting (generally spoken) are the photos they made. First of all lower rank people had (in general) less means to purchase a high quality camera than the higher ranks. And the lower ranks took more photos of their comrades or themselves as souvenir for home. Either the professionals (PK) or the regimental photographers, or people with an academic training made another style of coverage. Their albums are often well captioned and the photos placed in chronological order.
It was just as it still is today.
Among the lower ranks were many soldiers who kne that they were in France or Belgium or Russia, but in the best of case they could tell you whether in the north or the south, the east or the west. Their view on the total picture was not as clear and detailed as it was to the higher ranks.
This to say that the crème de la crème will be found among officers and their relatives.
And if you now think that sudek13 took away all the beautiful candy then allow me to stress mark that the officers were in general 30 years or older. In general these men passed away already more than ten years ago before ebay even existed.
So if you wanted to hunt for the best candy then I am afraid that you started (like many ebayers) much too late.
I know a number of collectors (some are among us here at the board) who started collecting twenty years ago or even longer.
It's to some extent in their collections that you have to look for the unique or exceptional.
By the way David started collecting photos and albums some 20 years ago and apparently nobody had any problem with that. Only the day he showed up at ebay like many of you and we do.

I am a little surprized that you ask me where the good photos are to be found 'milcollector'.
1. The dealers
2. The families and relatives of the soldiers
3. Collectors (I suppose you belong to this group when I look at your nickname)
3. Civilians
4. Military Archives
5. Museums
6. City Archives
7. Press and photo agencies
8. Book publishers (Squadron Signal publications started collecting photos 30 years ago!!! And there are many like Sq.Sig.)
9. Flea markets
10. Militaria fairs
11. E-fairs
12. Ebay and many other military photo auction sites
...

Now if you take all these categories together how much percent does ebay represent you think? I fear that 10% is an over estimation.

Warm regards and good luck with the hunting.

Stefan

[milcollector]

dont be surprised Stefan, I simply ask out of curiosity due the fact that I am not based in Europe. Thank you for your interesting commentary.
Again, there is no doubt that officers had the funds to entertain their photography hobby more so than OR's, however it is interesting to note that the vast bulk of my Wehrmacht photo collection have obviously been taken by ranks no higher than Unteroffizier and amongst them are many technical shots. In fact my own grandfather, who was merely a "private first class", and came from a working class background, owned his own camera in 1942. He took many snaps of his artillery team in action, including knocked out panzers etc.. The quality of the prints are excellent.
In the 20 years I have been collecting, I have sourced many photos from New Zealand soldiers who were also "working class". At least in this part of the world, I think that owning a camera in the 1940's was not as extravagent as some might think.

[PzV]

I fully agree with Stefan and find that Ebay is not that interesting as a source of photos. Naturally we here in Europe (and in Germany) have it much easier than a collector outside of Europe bu I can truthfully say that less than 1% of my photos are from Ebay. I personally prefer to see the photo before purchasing in any event and pick up an average of 1-3 albums per week at local flea markets or from local "providers". This allows us in Europe to be very precise in what we want to keep. At the moment large quantities are showing up due to the death of veterans and I have been picking up at least one Panzer grouping per month (my focus) and have recently acquired two large Stug groupings from relatives who had no use for them (a friend of mine got more than 500 loose Stug photos as well as two photo albums for free from the son!). I personally thank Sudek 13 as it has also made my collection more valuable!

[Bootmanager]

Stefan De Meyer-right

Please read my lips and remember the words for all time : NOT ONE PHOTO ONLY EXISTS IN ONE COPY!
All the photos you see at ebay exist in several examples.

they allow me an example.

picture above,from one of my albums.

picture below,from ebay albums .( last time)

( Getto-Warschau)

I have seen several examples.


also a photo here in the forum was shown.


motiv is certainly some of the many soldiers have been photographed.
(think of it as an example to the Paris - Eiffelturm)

Bootmanger


the horse is gone.........
I can text still not read.........

[mark67]

I can text still not read.........

It is of the topic but the text on the wall means:
"Bricks for sell
Informations - 8 Graniczna (Str)"

HTH

Marek