Guys - I have a great grouping from 4/schwere Flakabt 535 (Eis). Can anyone tell me about the marking on the train?
Thanks!
Marc
Thanks!
Marc
-
-
Marc,
I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I wanted to take the opportunity to show others what you already know through e-mails from me about a WWII 9th AAC B-26 Marauder pilot vet (a good friend's dad) who was hit by a rail flak team. He said they were incredibly accurate, good at their jobs. He's holding a handful of flak shrapnel he recovered from the belly of his B-26. One of the pieces has a swastika on it. He stopped counting the holes in his plane at (70). He started his wartime service flying over the D-Day beacheads in support of ground troops, and went home to train others after (75) combat missions.
Now, back to business...
Robert -
Robert,
This was a 105mm train! Stationed in the Berlin area. Bet they were busy...
MarcComment
-
The three "Flak88" labels are superimposed on the photo. How do we know the emblem isn't superimposed also? If it isn't, then it's probably a generic emblem for the Eisenbahn-Flakartillerietruppen. IIRC, there was a German book published around 20 years ago that covers this subject. Have you seen it? It might answer your question.
--BHS1956Comment
-
The FLAK88s are copy protection - sorry for the confusion! I am wondering if there is any info on the text on the train below the (original) Flakbahn symbol...Comment
-
Well, "WL" is most likely "Wehrmacht - Luftwaffe", as we see on vehicle license plates. "0112" is probably a manufacturing or inventory number assigned to that particular car. "VI" could refer to Luftgau VI (the Ruhr area). But I have no idea what "4.5" means.Originally posted by Flak88 View Post
So, you didn't answer my question. Do you know about the book I referred to? I can't remember whether it was part of the Waffen Arsenal series or independently published.
--BHS1956Comment
-
I do not know if but you have added a book for me to search for!
Thanks,
MarcComment
-
Marc,Originally posted by Flak88 View Post
He referred to the 105mm flak as 'the big guns'. He said they would throw 10-12 rounds at them, reload (which he said was around a minute or less) and repeat it until they were out of range. He said without breaking formation to the left or right between shots no one would have escaped their accurate fire. He said the big birds (the B-17's) weren't allowed to dodge fire, which accounted for so many lost planes. They were ordered (SOP) to stay on course. It's amazing and very interesting to hear his stories of his missions from D-Day on. From what he tells me, the rail crews were the best and most feared of all flak units. He's the very last surviving member of his unit today.
RobertComment
-
The rail flak were the elite of the flak crews.
Comment
-
Marc, Here is a photo that appears in Das Grosse Buch der Flak by Manfred Griehl. It shows a Flak 38 (Vierling) car with a similar emblem. Note that the emblem is similar but different from the one in your picture. The emblem in the Griehl book has an oakleaf surround and looks somewhat like a Flak badge with the gun reversed. The caption suggests that the "3" under the insignia indicates the third battery.
Comment
-
Might one photo be of Luftwaffe flak (the 1st photo), and possibly the other Heer flak? I really can't tell from the last photo if the personnel are wearing Heer or Luftwaffe tunics, although the man on the far right appears to be wearing an overcoat (greatcoat?). Just a thought. I confess I have a lot to learn.
RobertComment
-
All the Eisenbahnflak personnel pictured in the Griel book appear to be Luftwaffe.Comment
-
G.B. is right. There was no Heeres-Eisenbahnflakartillerie. However, there were a number of rail-mounted Heeres-Artillerie Abteilungen. Remember hearing about "Anzio Annie"?
As for the Luftwaffe's 25 or so Eis., Eisb., ETr., etc., Abteilungen of railway Flak, I think you would find a lot of disagreement that they were the "elite" of the Flak units. I think it is commonly held that the motorized Flak units that supported the Heer in Russia, North Africa, Italy, Normandy, etc., held that distinction. These are the ones that were components of the pre-war Flak-Regimenter, i.e., I./Flak-Rgt. 12, II./Flak-Rgt. 14, I./Flak-Rgt. 37, etc., and were used mainly as anti-tank units, although they did fire on enemy aircraft, too. Proportionally, most of the Flak RKs and DkiGs went to them.
--BHS1956Comment
-
Perhaps, but I think we need to distinguish roles. The supporting Flak unts with the RKTs were mainly fighting a ground battle. Yes, they shot some planes down, but they were not dedicated AAA. The railflak on the otherhand were used as surge for the truly key areas during the war and they contributed criticaly as AAA. Note that Westermann goes to great lengths to show the rail flak were the best. They got the best guns - the 128mm - for example.Comment
-
Yes, they were indeed sent into the breech to reinforce or supplement the AA defences around critical targets and were thought of among Flak personnel as the "cavalry" of the antiaircraft forces. But you did not differentiate between the Flak units in support of the ground forces and those that were not. You just said "The rail flak were the elite of the flak crews." Excluding the ground support Flak units, then your statement is closer to the mark, although not everyone would agree. I think they may have faced more danger than the (v) and (o) units by and large because they were far more exposed. They often pulled their trains right into the heart of the target area where the bombs were falling, while the (v) and (o) batteries usually fired from stationary fortified positions on the outskirts of the cities - in the suburbs so to speak. Westermann does go on a bit about them, but Horst-Adalbert Koch ( Die Geschichte der deutschen Flakartillerie und der Luftwaffenhelfer (Bad Nauheim, 1965), is a bit more balanced. According to Koch, they were equipped in accordance with their mission, not because they were a better trained elite. On the factual side, the Eisenbahn-Flakartillerie crews were nearly all German in the younger age groups, while the stationary (v) and (o) Abteilungen contained large proportions of RAD, Freiwilligen (Croatians, Latvians, Ukrainians, etc.), Flakhelfer and Flakhelferinnen, Russian P/Ws, etc. That fact alone set them apart from the stationary Flak units dug in around the cities and related target areas.Originally posted by Flak88 View Post
--BHS1956Comment
Comment