I would like to show you this P/O. Is it original?
Carlo
Carlo
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I would like to show you this P/O. Is it original?
Carlo -
Catch is replaced and it has gold finish on it.... I would.doubt.
SebThe German Luftwaffe Pilot and Combined Pilot and Observer Badges of WWII 1933-1945
Volume I & Volume II
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Now Available
www.luftwaffepilotbook@gmail.com -
Hi Carlo,
As Seb says, the catch is definately replaced, you can see the scratch marks on both sides where the original solder was scraped away and this new catch installed. The gold finish is in these scratch marks, so that is very suspicious and a sure sign of refinishing.
The gold finish is also quite muted, not what we expect from an early, fire gilded Juncker PO as this is trying to be.
TomIf it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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P/O it is original
Have to agree with Seb and Tom. Badge is original, but catch is repaired, and that finish is definitely not what one would expect on original junckers. The gold finish Juncker used on their earlier models is quite distinct once you see it on a few originals.
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For me a refinished pilot as well!!Comment
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Thank you for your experience, I saved a lot of money
CarloComment
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The guys above have already nailed the evaluation of this badge. Why am I not surprised to see it coming from THAT dealer ....
Regards
MikeRegards
Mike
Evaluate the item, not the story and not the seller's reputation!
If you PM/contact me without the courtesy of using your first name, please don't be offended if I politely ignore you!Comment
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I do not think that this badge is refinished Tom,Originally posted by Thomas Durante View PostHi Carlo,
As Seb says, the catch is definately replaced, you can see the scratch marks on both sides where the original solder was scraped away and this new catch installed. The gold finish is in these scratch marks, so that is very suspicious and a sure sign of refinishing.
The gold finish is also quite muted, not what we expect from an early, fire gilded Juncker PO as this is trying to be.
Tom
the catch has definitely been repaired or replaced and appears to be made of brass. Then after the repair they have cleaned the bottom of the badge up. Followed by dipping it in something like jewellery cleaning solution to brighten/ match up the finish of the whole badge.
The wreath is made of brass and what looks like refinish of the scratches is simply the brightened fresh underlying brass from cleaning.
If you look at the rivets you can see that they are classic Juncker and have not been messed with or replaced.
You can also see the original correct gold colour of the wreath showing around the hinge where it has been protected from handling. This is also brighten from cleaning solution as is the silver frosting of the nickle-silver eagle,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 12-29-2019, 04:46 PM.Comment
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Hi Chris,Originally posted by 90th Light View Post
Yes, I agree with this. The only original gold on this wreath is under the hinge, everything else is either polished brass base metal or a different muted gold finish that was applied to the wreath to hide the repairs to the catch.
TomIf it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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Thank you Tom and Jos,
I am pleased that you do not think that I have got this wrong. As always it is hard to make a judgement without holding the badge in hand.
I do not think the wreath has been refinished in anyway.
What I am told happens, the yellow frosting effect over the fire gilding is lost or changes colour when exposed to heat or fire. The temperature of flame will cause the gold plating to react by blackening or go dark brownish. Then as someone tries to clean off this ugly blackened/ brownish heat tarnish, the yellowish top frosting is lost, leaving the darker base gold underneath or exposed bare brass on the high points.
The finish on the wreath is now a combination of remaining base gold from the original fire gilding, (still brown/ black in places) in the lower recessed parts and exposed brass on the high points and in the scratches.
The nickel-silver eagle has brighten up also from cleaning with a good % of frosting remaining.
Also we do not know how much wear/ use this badge had before it was repaired,
ChrisComment
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One of the most obvious refinishing cases I’ve ever seen.
Look at the difference in the silver on the back wing tips. And the different shades of silver around the maker mark.Comment
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More silver frosting remains on the reverse of the eagle than on the front. This is typical of any badge which has been worn or handled a lot.Originally posted by Tony Bologna View Post
It is hard to tell if much frosting at all remains on the front ?
Once you wear through the frosting and then the layer of silver you are down to the nickel. When you first clean bare Nickel it looks like a nice silver. However, as it tarnishes again over time it goes a duller silvery-brownish-grey depending on the exact composition of the Nickel.
The silver frosting is still completely or mostly intact around the inner side of the rivet and the makers mark on the reverse side. The frosting and silver have been increasingly polished/ worn away from the outer side of the rivets towards the wing tips. As you go below the makers mark towards the Swaz, the silver frosting becomes increasingly thinner as it has been worn/ polished away from the hole between the legs and the Swaz.
These are not signs of refinishing. They are clear signs of use, wear, handling and cleaning,
Chris
p.s. the loss of frosting, silver, patina from the Nickel is exactly the reason not to clean a badgeLast edited by 90th Light; 01-02-2020, 01:52 AM.Comment
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