FJ Osang para?

[Frank Heukemes]

And in addition to that, yet ANOTHER P/O badge in zinc by the unknown maker with that same Osang mark from my files (miliweb).
I think there might be a bit more to it than some idiot applying these Osang marks ESPECIALLY to badges with the unknown maker characteristics.

[Frank Heukemes]

.....

[skip]

Frank, are you leaning to the badge being an original?

We can see that its probably a Juncker eagle, sometimes found on Immes, with the filed out talon.
The wreath is from the type of the unknown maker.
The reverse setup on the back is classic Osang except for the rivets.

Lets accept for the moment that these are not some parts cast from originals and then cleverly put togeather as original.

Taken with the fact that we also have obviously original zinc P/Os with Osang maker mark, it would mean that Osang somehow took over the unknown maker, supplied his wreaths with the Osang setup and bought in eagles from Juncker.

We´ve seen a lot of mixed parts from some makers but this one has just got to be a little over the top.

Really don´t know what to make of it after all.

Skip

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Skip,

All I say is that I am not convinced yet that it is a fake. Its features, part by part, and the surrounding evidence require some more thinking and have to be kept in mind for any more badges with these maker marks which might turn up. For me, the case is not yet closed, especially because i cannot find any fakes with ANY of the exact elements shown in this thread.

Unfortunately, nobody seems to be too interested or do you all think I am nuts?

[colin davie]

Frank I for one certainly am interested and appreciate how much time you put in to your thought process in regard to all our badges, I'm sure many others like myself would be happy to contribute if we could, but personally I just don't have the reference files anymore... I used to have tons of saved images but the computer they were stored on all but blew up.
I am well on the way to building another, and saving to disc more now.
Watching with interest,
Colin

[Neil Howes]

Ok I will stick in my thoughts!

I would not be happy with the combination of elements if I was considering this badge. My main issues are that Osang already have 2 variants of their para badge allbeit hinge/catch construction, bringing in the unknown maker P/O into the equation, why would a company use different manufacturers parts? Then there is the maker mark.

I realise I am being very negative, I am always open to new types & I have taken a few risks in this line, however I just don't go for this combination!

regards,

Neil

[Gerd W.]

I am always open to new types & I have taken a few risks in this line, however I just don't go for this combination!

Hello!

I´m with Skip and Neil here. The badge in question is some kind of "a way too much" piece (IMHO).

We had thread a while back, maybe some of you remember

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ighlight=Osang

Also a Juncker style eagle with Osang mark (very close eagle when you ask me). We came to the result: cast copy. Correct me please, if I´m wrong here.

Now we have the same eagle on an unknown maker wreath. BTW, I´m still in the hope, that the badge in question is not made from zinc....

Anyway, here is another Osang with the unknown maker wreath and a Juncker "look like style" (late war style). Sorry for posting other guys pics here!!

So what I found is, that there are several Juncker style eagles with Osang maker mark, on different wreath styles. Not one is an original!

Not one is out of a save source, not one found on so called reputable dealer sides (since years).

I´ll try to post some other (when I find them again ).

[Gerd W.]

reverse

[Gerd W.]

Here is the next badge, also with a "near by a" Juncker eagle and an Osang maker mark. Fake!

[Frank Heukemes]

Firstly, thanks for taking part in this discussion, because this is what this forum should be all about. We should be able to do this without hurting each other´s feelings.

@Neil: it is not a question of "would one of us BUY this badge", or "do we like it personally". I would also ALWAYS buy a textbook Osang para only. This is more about reviewing the things in front of us a little more closely than just simply dismissing them.

@Gerd: with all due respect, now you are mixing things up. The first fake you show has a different (usual fake) Osang maker mark than all the examples I have shown in this thread which are consistent among each other (with the two S of OSANG and DRESDEN almost on top of each other). Moreover it has wreath resembling that of the unknown maker, but it is different. Compare e.g. the shallow reverse cutouts. The badge in question and the unknown maker para I show have identical wreathes.

Fake # 2 you show is something completely different and in my opinion does not really belong in this discussion.

I cannot see how one can think the badge in question is not made of zinc. Maybe the owner can give us some more info here.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Open question: what do you all make personally of the things I presented?

-why always the same Osang mark (and I stress it is one NOT to be found on obvious fakes)?
-why always on badges of the unknown maker (or at least with elements of the unknown maker in our case here)?

[Gerd W.]

@Gerd:
Fake # 2 you show is something completely different and in my opinion does not really belong in this discussion.

Hi Frank! Sorry, my English is not good enough to go more well grounded in such a discussion.

I only wanted to show here, that such Juncker eagle style (yes, also with several different Osang maker markings) are common for Osang fake badges. You´ll find them on different wreaths styles too.

We have a mixed badge (Juncker/unknown maker/Osang) here, so we should find out, if the parts from Entasis badge are good.

IMHO we´ll not find an answer (IMHO), when we compare a P/0 or pilot badge with a para one. So maybe we should compare a Juncker eagle with a Juncker eagle, an unknown maker wreath with........and so on.

Here again the eagle from Willi´s badge. It´s Osang marked (forgett the wreath style for a moment ) and in our opinion a fake badge.

[Neil Howes]

Frank, I have evaluated what is put in front of me & I am not convinced!

Where would this theory fit in the chronology of Osang production, before, during or after accepted Osang types?

Why use 2 types of makers mark on zinc badges?

Why use different parts from different suppliers?

As in the case of nearly all badge production both early & late, its all conjecture as to how these things got produced.

Neil

[entasis]

additional comments and questions...

First, let me thank everyone for their time and caliber of scholarly discusson going on. I've certainly gotten more feedback than I'd hoped to get. I've been watching silently from the sidelines trying to absorb as much of the thinking and information that's being exchanged. I'm sure I'm not the only one doing so in this edifying and entertaining thread.

In the meantime, I've been trying to get better photographs of details that I believe have not been accurately or precisely presented. Unfortunately, my scanner (Epson Perfection 1640SU) did not take the best pictures nor could I rid the blue hue in the scans. After tinkering with my digital camera (Canon Elph 500S) I finally got the macro shots to come out decent (apparently, the auto white balancing did not work well in macro mode and under tungsten lighting so I've set the WB to 'indoor' and now have much better results). I'll post these shortly. In any case I hope to show better the makers mark & border and also the rivets (btw, they are not too unlike Frank's pictures in posting #9 and #11 here...<http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63274&highlight=para+unknown+make r>

Additional comments and questions...


This badge was an impulse purchase and I should have known better than not to do my homework upfront. However, let me say that what most impressed me was the detailing in the eagle...I find it to be most excellent. Though I don't know much about construction processes, I can't believe this is a cast...where often details are lacking. Perhaps you good people can add to this. As for the construction metal I cannot say. I would not know how to tell the difference between tombak/zinc/buntmetal. I will be at the March, Meadowlands Militaria show and can bring it so someone can take a look at it and determine material. Anyways, here's a few other observations and thoughts that I've had:

As for unknown maker wreaths, I've noticed in all the para's pictured, that the eagle's beak is always at the 7 oclock position (or as I call it, second leaf) which gives it a rather steep angle compared to all other FJ badges which hover around the 8 oclock/third leaf area. Is this because of the maker's decision? does the construction of the wreath limit the position of rivets?

Were there only large wholesale companies making badges? Could there be small operations making limited production? In this case making their own low quality wreaths and purchasing eagles (pilot or para)...ie, subcontracting the eagles? Or vice-versa, big operations buying pieces from different companies (the same thing happens today...ie, mil-spec products or say auto part are the same regardless of source)?

I have no idea of the blue numbers on the back nor did they influence my purchase but they appear to be akin to how museums and collectors label their items. Anyone seen anything like this before? I can't tell from which direction they are supposed to be read...the zero, ones, six, eights and nines can be read upside down. The top 2 characters likes like an "SL" or "75"....take your pick.

I recently remembered the seller telling me that (for what it's worth) Mike Tucker had seen this badge and liked it. I didn't get his recent eyecandy book but have his "Collecting Military Badges of the Third Reich". I just finished looking at it and I didn't see much of paras there but did notice that on page 111, makers mark "43M" is the Osang with almost parallel S's (the standard Osang mark is "42M"). The book is copyrighted in 1997, has anyone seen any of these parallel S before then? I couldn't tell what type of badge exactly but looks like a clasp of some type. Does anyone have his most recent book to see what's there on FJ badges?

Final observation, the lower rivet (near eagle's shoulder) is a little loose and the eagle moves a little bit at this point.

thanks everyone!!

Tony

[entasis]

additional pictures

As noted on my earlier posting, I've taken some additional photographs. Since these detailed shots elaborate on previously published photos I didn't want to lose any details by reducing them nor tax the server any more than need be; so I've linked them below (click on description to link to pix):

- Obverse small version (227k)
- Obverse large version (928k)
- Rivets (237k)
- Catch & hinge (465k)
- Eagle details (569k)
- Maker mark B&W (97k)
- Osang "parallel S" comparative analysis (large version of below - 383k)

One of the last things I did was to prepare a comparative study of the Osang maker marks where the S's are nearly on top of each other. I first cut and pasted my badge's (henceforth "FJ married Osang") maker mark to the upper left hand corner of the picture. Followed on the same row with those shown by Frank previously as legit Osang mm with the S's nearly on top of each other. I then continued to do so for other 'parallel S' Osang mm that I had in my picture library. The description on each should describe as "fake" or "accepted" (ie, the thread's consensus relayed if the badge in question was a repro or period piece) plus the badge type and the owner/poster in parenthesis.

I generally found 2 major categories. The S exactly above and below. And then, the lower S located slightly to the left of the upper S. You could also easily differentiate by examining spaces between letters, spaces between words, and spaces between lines, or even how the letters align underneath each other (e.g., the N's).

In any case, near the end of my cut/paste I came across Spanky's fake Osang para which I purposely re-located to be below mine. Since many of the pictures were of poor quality or resolution, it's possible that a "stamping frame" may not be visible on the picture or only faintly visible in person (I'm even unsure if they are common in other badges or are not acceptable for whatever reason). But on Spanky's a frame is clearly visible (see original photo in post #2 on his thread) and is very close to the stamping frame on mine!? (e.g., see the 45 degree cut above the first 'G') I'll leave it there for comments from others. Here again is a link to <Spanky's thread>. And should anyone have objections to having their item on the comparative analysis let me know and I'll remove their item.

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Tony,

Some great shots of your badge in those picture links, thank you. I hope we all can agree now that this badge in question is made of zinc.

From the pics, I would say it is not a CAST reproduction.

Regarding the different Osang marks: There are indeed differences in between some original Osang badges of DIFFERENT types. The one mark you show from the older Tucker book is a variant Osang mark on Luftwaffe clasps. It can be found in parallel on original clasps (such as Schlachtflieger clasps) with the more "regular" Osang mark. Why? I do not know. But other makers had different marks for zinc badges as well. It is not something VERY unusual.

@Neil: I can understand your scepticism and share it. But what keeps nagging me is "why these Osang marks always on these otherwise good badges (P/Os and pilots) and this one "parts" badge from the unknown maker?" I have also no explanation where in Osangs production these could fit in, but to me simply saying fake or not textbook and neglecting the reasons behind this and turning our heads away to the nice textbook ones is not enough in this case. Tony´s badge generally does not look "bad", it is just the combination of things which makes it very weird.