Deumer Pilots Badge

[Tim Hart]

Good day<O></O>

<O></O>

I recently acquired this Deumer Pilots Badge from a reputable dealer in Germany. I had originally thought that it was made from Juncker J2 parts. However, it is slightly smaller than other J2s in my collection as can be seen from weight and measurement comparisons. In addition it does not have the characteristic trough under the hinge or any cut-out between the legs. This all having been said it has a very convincing feel to it and the rivets appear to be typical Deumer (I use Yuri Desyatnik’s excellent article for reference). What do you guys think? Is it a very good copy? I would emphasise that it has a quality feel to it.

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Badge in

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Deumer

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Differential

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J2

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J2

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Differential

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Question

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to Deumer

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to J2

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Wreath Height mm

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50.83

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53.10

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2.27

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52.82

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52.75

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1.92

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Wreath Width mm

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40.96

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43.30

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2.34

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42.22

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41.85

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0.89

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Eagle Width mm

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64.29

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66.00

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1.71

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65.99

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66.43

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2.14

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Swastika Diagonal mm

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14.97

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15.30

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0.33

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16.22

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15.96

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0.99

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Catch to Hinge mm

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43.86

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47.00

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3.14

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46.51

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45.58

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1.72

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Hinge mm

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11.88

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14.30

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2.42

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13.17

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14.91

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3.03

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Weight g

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37.2

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44.4

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7.2

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44.8

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44.2

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7.0

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[Tim Calvert]

Pics of Tim Hart's badge.....

[Tim Calvert]

Mr. Hart's backside...

[Tim Calvert]

Hellmark...reevet, heenge.

[Tim Calvert]

Stuph...

[Tim Calvert]

Eagle....let's hear some opinions please!

[Rich G]

I see problems with the maker mark and that isn't a good start.

[Frank Heukemes]

I think it is a decent casting with fortunately some mistakes. I addition ot the casting signs and the wrong maker mark, they also got the hinge and especially the pin all wrong.

[Mike Kenny]

Hard one from images!

Initially I thought it might be OK for an unmarked Juncker with a post-war applied Deumer marking (would like to see the full Deumer marking for location of the umlat over the U). Looking at the hinge and pin, they seem good. The rivet, especially the left, looks like Juncker (even has the subdued "pinch"). However seeing the more detailed pics the obverse detail on the eagle's feathering appears weak - especially for a J2 eagle. The reverse of the eagle looks "soft" and does not appear to have typical Juncker hand finishing, although the reverse of the wreath looks OK from a distance (maybe micro-pockmarking giving the reverse a bit of a rough appearance). Also I don't like the peacock halo on the reverse of the eagle behind the wreath (more apparent reverse left).

Combining all that with some measurements that are too far out of tolerance (assuming the measurements ARE from genuine badges - I personally don't have relevant examples with which to compare), I agree with Frank that it's possibly a very good casting. At best for me, it's a "not for my collection" jobbie.

Regards
Mike K

[Lorenzo Brown]

Agree with Frank and Mike. All of the smaller measurements indicate a cast copy to me. Compare the details to a good Deumer and you can see numerous "internal" areas that lack details. The lack of details in these internal areas ( not subject to "wear") would strongly suggest a cast copy.

[Frank Heukemes]

Nobody picked up on my pin comment so far, shouldn´t it be flattened on top right after it bends into the straight part and remain flattened for a while until it reaches about the middle of the pin?
And doesn´t pin (and catch) appear a wee bit too fat?

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

Frank, for a genuine 100% Deumer you may be right (no scoop under the hinge either), but if it had more in the way of Juncker components (or assembly) then maybe not - the hinge and pin wouldn't be too disproportionate in the latter case. The wartime Juncker-Deumer connection can muddy the waters sometimes (I still think this particular is probably a good casting though). A side shot of the hinge showing the thickness of the barrel would be useful as from what I've seen repros tend to be too thick (ie and conversely, the hinge pin on repros tends to be of a smaller OD than genuine hinge pins).

Regards
Mike K

[Brian S]

Seeing the details compared to mine of course it's soft on detail. But a very good cast. They are definitely getting better. Good job lads, now pay attention to pin, catch and latch like you did on the numbered PABs and make it a little more difficult.

[Tim Hart]

Deumer Pilot Badge

Firstly I should like to thank everyone who leapt to my aid when I failed miserably to post my own photos of this badge (many thanks to Tim Calvert and Neil Howes). Thanks also to everyone who has responded with good sound constructive comments. I believe I was half way there myself but in any event your knowledgable input has convinced me to send this bird back from whence it came. Thanks again.


Tim

[Neil Howes]

Thanks Tim,

Here is the reverse of a Juncker eagle & wreath parts badge, note flattened pin & shave under the hinge, as per Frank's & Mike's posts.

Regards,

Neil