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**Brian S** · 06-05-2016, 10:58 AM

Really good information when it's taken from Flugbuch like this! I think you guys are right that the fighter pilots could get their count up quickly as they were returning to the field for ammo and fuel and right back up again. The NJG guys I would think a little less often as landings and takeoffs were every bit as dangerous as enemy action. Maybe the Stuka guys were off and back to the field more quickly also as they carried a limited load of bombs.

Counts of clasps in collections might give us some anecdotal evidence.

**waterloo** · 06-07-2016, 07:22 AM

The statement that after 80 front flights the Ehrenpokal was awarded to I do not consider correct.
In my experience the Ehrenpokal was awarded after foundation the front flying clasps to Kampf-u. Sturzkampfflieger after about 150 front flights. This means the holder of the EP carriered the golden clap quite some time.
Aufklärer get the EP a little earlier, here the silver clasp was the rule.
Best regards
waterloo

**drlemans** · 06-07-2016, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by Brian S View Post

Really good information when it's taken from Flugbuch like this! I think you guys are right that the fighter pilots could get their count up quickly as they were returning to the field for ammo and fuel and right back up again. The NJG guys I would think a little less often as landings and takeoffs were every bit as dangerous as enemy action. Maybe the Stuka guys were off and back to the field more quickly also as they carried a limited load of bombs.

Counts of clasps in collections might give us some anecdotal evidence.

My experience to this Theme: For nighfighters counted every "Feindflug" (means when they got order to start against (mostly the british) enemy), over Germany or other regions - no matter if they got contact to an enemy plane or not. In my flight books "Nachtschlacht Einsätze" (Ground attack) of nightfighters in the last months of war counted like a "Feindflug".

**Brian S** · 06-07-2016, 09:33 AM

I always thought it was, "...besondere Leistung im Luftkrieg..." I always assumed it was not a "gimmee" but could be earned on 'occasion' of that special performance. Klietmann doesn't mention number of flights.

**Brian R** · 06-07-2016, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by waterloo View Post

The statement that after 80 front flights the Ehrenpokal was awarded to I do not consider correct.
In my experience the Ehrenpokal was awarded after foundation the front flying clasps to Kampf-u. Sturzkampfflieger after about 150 front flights. This means the holder of the EP carriered the golden clap quite some time.
Aufklärer get the EP a little earlier, here the silver clasp was the rule.
Best regards
waterloo

It seems reasonable that it could be more for Stuka units relative to bomber units given the frequency of their sorties. Also, I'm guessing the 80 could have been the rule at a given point and time and changed as the war did.

**Brian R** · 06-07-2016, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by Brian S View Post

I always thought it was, "...besondere Leistung im Luftkrieg..." I always assumed it was not a "gimmee" but could be earned on 'occasion' of that special performance. Klietmann doesn't mention number of flights.

A general term left open to judgement and interpretation. Just look at how the EK was awarded. Bravery was measured differently depending on branch of service, unit, staff officer or frontline soldier, battle and, especially, time period (1940 compared to 1945, for instance).

**Brian S** · 06-07-2016, 10:06 AM

Brian, I am not seeing any rules? Exactly, I think discretion with approval.

**Brian R** · 06-07-2016, 10:14 AM

See the modern day letter related to the Zweitschrift Soldbuch just sold on the estand to a Stuka pilot. He states 150 feindflugen for his Pokal.

Attached Files

image.jpeg (102.7 KB, 166 views)

**Brian R** · 06-07-2016, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by Brian S View Post

Brian, I am not seeing any rules? Exactly, I think discretion with approval.

Agreed. General rules with General discretion, depending on unit-type, time period, etc.

**Brian S** · 06-07-2016, 10:19 AM

Yes, and can you imagine surviving 150 combat flights? This makes the most sense to me at least. Discretion relative to the combat conditions fought.

**peterm** · 06-07-2016, 11:48 AM

Hi guys!

My contribution to this discussion:

The estate of a radio-operator of "Geschwader Boelcke" shows the award-dates as follows:

- Front flying clasp for "Kampfflieger" in bronce 29.04.1941 (53rd Feindflug on
this day)
- Front flying clasp for "Kampfflieger" in silver 16.05.1941 (62nd Feindflug on
12.05.1941)
- Front flying clasp for "Kampfflieger" in gold 26.07.1941 (84th Feindflug on
22.07.1941)

- Honor goblet as "Kampfflieger" 29.04.1942 (146th Feindflug on this day)

- Front flying clasp for "Kampfflieger" in gold + star 15.09.1942 (272nd
Feindflug on 10.09.1942)

- German cross in gold 24.09.1942 (272nd Feindflug on 10.09.1942)

(No front-flights between 10.09. and 11.10.1942).

This man also was awarded the badge for radio-operators, EK II and EK I, the wound badge in black, the Hungarian bravery medal in silver (small version), the Ostmedal, the Krim-shield and the Romanian medal "Kreuzzug gegen den Kommunismus".
He ended the war with a total of 454 front-flights.

Hope that helps,

kind regards,

Peter

**Tim O.** · 06-07-2016, 04:54 PM

Like Peter, I have checked some of the Flugbuche in my collection. This is what I have so far:

Hauptmann in Long-Range Reconnaissance
EK1 - 10th Aug 1940 at 20 Frontflug
Bronze Clasp - 2nd May 1941 at 49 Frontflug
Silver Clasp - 20th July 1941 at 71 Frontflug
Ehrenpokal - 10th August 1941 at 78 Frontflug
Gold Clasp - 21st November 1941 at 11 Frontflug
DKiG - 2nd September 1942 at 185 Frontfluig
Gold Clasp with Star Pendant - 29th March 1943 at 250 Frontflug
Ritterkreuz - 3rd March 1944 at 326 Frontflug

Hauptmann in Küstenflieger and Bomber Gruppen
Bronze Clasp - 5th May 1941 at 79 Frontflug
Silver Clasp - 24th May 1941 at 90 Frontflug
EK1 - 19th June 1941 at 98 Frontflug
Ehrenpokal - 15th August 1941 at 108 Frontflug
Gold Clasp - 12th November 1941 at 116 Frontflug

Oberleutnant in Bombers
EK1 - 17th July 1941 at 23 Frontflug
Bronze Clasp - 18th July 1941 at 23 Frontflug
Silver Clasp - 8th November 1941 at 66 Frontflug
Gold Clasp - 12th February 1942 at 115 Frontflug
Ehrenpokal - 12th March 1942 at 167 Frontflug
DKiG - 11th May 1942 at 251 Frontflug

Oberfeldwebel in Transport and Bombers
Gold Clasp - 23rd June 1941 at 131 Frontflug
EK1 - 4th July 1941 at 144 Frontflug (Yes, this is correct!)
Ehrenpokal - 14th April 1942 at 228 Fronflug
Gold Clasp with Star Pendant - 20th September 1942 at 287 Frontflug
DKiG - 29th October 1942 at 287 Frontflug (having become an instructor)

I am not sure there is much of a pattern here for award of the Pokal.

Best wishes
Tim O.

**Brian S** · 06-07-2016, 05:07 PM

Discretionary as we thought.

**waterloo** · 06-12-2016, 03:43 AM

Thank god , it's weekend and I have some time

Aufkärer:
OBERFELDWEBEL WERNER BREESE
Frontflugspange silber 20.07.41
Ehrenpokal 10.8.41
Frontflugspange gold 21.11.41

FELDWEBEL AUGUST HÖGEL
Frontflugspange silber 22.05.41
Ehrenpokal 21.10.41
Frontflugspange gold 20.01.42

LEUTNANT HERMANN KRÄMER
Frontflugspange silber 17.11.41
Ehrenpokal 20.11.41
Frontflugspange gold 30.08.42

OBERLEUTNANT KARL SCHUH
Frontflugspange silber 19.05.42
Ehrenpokal 06.09.42
Frontflugspange gold 19.12.42

FELDWEBEL JOSEF WARGIN
Frontflugspange silber 09.05.41
Frontflugspange gold 13.06.42
Ehrenpokal 12.09.42

UNTEROFFIZIER BERNHARD KÄMMERLING
Frontflugspange silber 12.02.43
Frontflugspange gold 15.04.43
Ehrenpokal 30.08.43

Stuka
LEUTNANT WILHELM THIELMANN
Frontflugspange silber 02.05.42
Frontflugspange gold 20.08.42
Ehrenpokal 17.10.43

UNTEROFFIZIER KARL GROBLER
Frontflugspange silber 09.05.43
Frontflugspange gold 15.04.43
Ehrenpokal 23.10.42

UNTEROFFIZIER GOTTFRIED LANNEWERS
Frontflugspange silber 01.03.42
Frontflugspange gold 28.05.42
Ehrenpokal 20.06.42

Bomber
LEUTNANT RUDOF WILHELM
Frontflugspange silber 16.04.41
Frontflugspange gold 15.07.41
Ehrenpokal 08.01.42

FELDWEBEL AUGUST HALDIMANN
Frontflugspange silber 21.03.42
Frontflugspange gold 06.03.42
Ehrenpokal 16.08.42

FELDWEBEL EDUARD LINDINGER
Frontflugspange silber 15.09.41
Frontflugspange gold 16.11.41
Ehrenpokal 12.02.42

OBERGEFREITEN KARL DOSTER
Frontflugspange silber 05.09.42
Frontflugspange gold 27.11.42
Ehrenpokal 27.10.43

Transporter
UNTEROFFIZIER JOSEF NESS
Frontflugspange silber 12.03.42
Frontflugspange gold 20.08.42
Ehrenpokal 20.03.44

Tagjäger
OBERLEUTNANT HEINZ LEESMANN
Ehrenpokal 26.10.1940 after 14 victorys in the west

HAUPTMANN ERICH WOITKE
Ehrenpokal 02.12.1940 after 9 victorys in the west

OBERLEUTNANT ERICH LEIE
Ehrenpokal 02.22.1941 after 11 victorys in the west

UNTEROFFIZIER WERNER LUCAS
Ehrenpokal 02.10.1941 after 29 victorys in the east

FELDWEBEL HEINZ KÖPPER
Ehrenpokal 13.10.1941 after 2 victorys in the west and 22 victorys in the east

LEUTNANT GUSTAV DENK
Ehrenpokal 23.10.1942 after 2 victorys in the west and 17 victorys in the east

FELDWEBEL EMIL BABENZ
Ehrenpokal 06.03.1943 after 9 victorys in the west

Nachtjäger
FELDWEBEL WILHELM BEIER
Ehrenpokal 19.06.1941 after 6 victorys in the night

LEUTNANT REINHOLD KNACKE
Ehrenpokal 04.06.1941 after 98 victorys in the night

Feldwebel Reinhard Kollak
Ehrenpokal 28.09.1942 after 13 victorys in the night

? Manfred Meurer
Ehrenpokal 15.03.1943 after 23 victorys in the night

? Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer
Ehrenpokal 26.07.1943 after 20 victorys in the night

? Heinz Rökker
Ehrenpokal 12.06.1944 after 33 victorys in the night

**bobgee526** · 01-28-2020, 08:00 PM

btt - For general interest. A second look. Bob

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